I’m told that the formal form of ‘you’ in spanish, was originally “Vuetra Merced”, or “Your Honor”. It was shortened to Usted.
Of course to a modern English speaker, when we have lost even our old informal “Thou”, this ‘usted’ comes across as a bit much.
My question is what would it sound like today if someone spoke spanish (perhaps a non-native speaker) and instead of just saying ‘usted’, used the full original ‘vuestra merced’? Would it come across as just extremely deferential, or nonsensical to other speakers?
To elaborate on sailor’s response, it’s a relatively common recourse for comics. People from “the hicks” often use words or forms of speech which are obsolete in “the city:” a comic playing on those contrasts is likely to use expressions like “perdone vuesa merced” (with or without sarcasm), which nobody in “the hicks” really uses but which are archaic.
It’s also sometimes used in regular conversation with enough sarcasm to drown in.
Technically, “vuestra merced” means “Your Mercy,” in much the sense that a higher British nobleman might be addressed in exceedingly formal situations as “Your Grace” – though nobody would ever say, “Would Your Grace care for a spot of tea?” or the like. And, as Nava and sailor note, “vuestra merced” would be used only for comic effect.
Which leads me to ask, is there any particular protocol for addressing Juan Carlos, the Infante, or any of the other Spanish royals (a) in typical “social” situations, e.g., they’re making a tour of the Americas, and you happen to be in the right place and time to encounter them, and (b) in formal settings, e.g., when some member of the Cortes formally addresses the King sitting in parliament.
There is no “infante”. There is Prince Felipe, his sisters are infantas.
I met Felipe in Baltimore when he was onboard the Juan Sebastian Elcano as midshipman. I have some pictures of him standing head and shoulders above the rest. He is quite tall. Must have been in the late 80s.
In the early to mid 90’s King Juan Carlos was present at the national holiday party given by the Spanish Embassy at the Willard hotel and I could have shaken his hand except that there were too many people groveling and I don’t play that game and I was more interested in the food and chicks anyway. I forget the exact year but I remember it was a Tuesday. Funny how memory works.
The guy is quite natural and jovial and the story in the Washington Post the next day was that he was peeing in the men’s room and some guy next to him, believing he was attending the same convention or something, introduced himself as the CEO of some company or other and Juan Carlos said, “nice to meet you, I’m the King of Spain” which left the other guy quite confused. All this in the men’s room as they peed.
I have heard Colombians use “Su merced” in normal polite conversation (no mocking, no irony, no ill intentions). More often than not servers and employees talking to patrons and superiors, but also within families. Many Latin Americans address their parents as “Usted” from early childhood through adulthood. Formal speech is still very common.
That said, don’t try it. It will sound funny. Much like trying to pull off a “mate” among Australians when you are not one.
I always thought it would be extremely sexy to sleep with a woman I was addressing formally as “usted”. Maybe it comes from having seen The Graduate. Maybe I should travel to Colombia. Although with the present state of insecurity in that country I might get fucked in a very different way.
Colombia is now a very safe travel destination, not to mention beautiful and very interesting. Addressing women of your same age as “usted” is not common, though. At least not if they are familiar enough for you to have sex with. She might treat you of “usted”, though, if that turns you on.
“Vuestra merced” would incredibly pompous and dated. “Thou” would be an equivalent. Colombians are very intersting because they use “usted” much more than other Spanish-speaking people, and would only go to “vos” (“tú” in some parts) in very intimate situations. Most Latin American use “usted” and “tú” (singular) and “ustedes” for plural (Only in Spain do they use “vosotros” as the plural of “tú”). In Argentina and Uruguay (and for some uses in Chile) “vos” is used instead of “tú” but always “ustedes” as the plural.
Question: Why is it “Vuestra” – isn’t Vuetras the informal plural 2nd person? It would have seemed that the correct respect would be “su merced”, the possesive of ‘usted’.
This is not important, but just so you know (since English isn’t your native tongue), the phrase you’re looking for is “the sticks.” “Hicks” is a derogatory term describing “backwards” people from the countryside. “The sticks” refers to the countryside itself, and that term is fairly neutral. So, “hicks” are people, “the sticks” is a place.
The informal would be “tu merced”*. In castillina Spanish th einformal 2nd plural is “vosotros”, for most of Latn AMerica there is no informal 2nd plural.
Of course “tu merced” sounds like “Thou art teh r0x0r”.
Well, “usted” couldn’t have a possessive before it was created, right?
At any rate, the real reason is that there is an archaic pronoun, “vos” (the origin of the modern second-person-singular “vos” in parts of Latin America), which was originally plural, then singular-formal and plural, like French “vous.” Accordingly, “your grace” took the formal singular: vuestra merced. And since it wasn’t vos being addressed, but vuestra merced, it naturally took the third-person possessive: su (much like the formal second-person Lei in Italian, literally “she” but referring to the various feminine-gendered titles analogous to vuestra merced.)
Vos, meanwhile, left behind “vosotros” for the plural (like Quebec French “vous autres” or Catalan “vosaltres”). Vos as a formal singular still exists for very archaic, ritualized types of speech, as does nos.
Vos was originally singular and plural and “vos-otros” was coined to distinguish the plural.
Same with nos - nosotros.
Old documents used nos and vos as plural as well as singular. I believe it was the traditional oath of allegiance of the nobles of Aragon to the new king where they reminded him he was just “primus inter pares” and had limited authority which went something like “Nos, que valemos tanto como Vos y que juntos somos más que Vos, os constituimos por nuestro Rey y Señor con tal que nos guardéis nuestros fueros y privilegios; y si no, no”
Heh. My dad had a friend by the name of Jose, who are often called “Pepe”. He went by “Pepillo”. We, respectful children that we were, would call him “Señor Pepillo” which everybody found very funny without us understanding why.