Question For Speakers Of Continental European Languages

Factual Questions
21

Well, Japanese also has 5 levels, and as mentioned above, it’s difficult. I mentioned to my wife I had learned that husband says “kimi” to wife, but wife says “anata” to husband. Her response was along the lines that if I tried anything of the sort I would be in pain.

Anyway, Swedish has “ni” as the formal version and “tu” as the informal, and it’s not nearly as strict as what Spiny Norman described for Danish. In Swedish you can quite happily call your boss “du”. “Ni” is more marked as showing respect to older people or strangers you’re meeting for the first time. Actually you could quite easily insult someone by saying “ni”.

All of which is to say to the OP that it varies strongly from one language to another and I guess this reflects the culture to some extent.

22

I’m sure that was a typo. It’s “ni”/“du” (or even “Ni”, with capital N.). ‘Ni’ was almost eradicated from the language inthe early 70’s (cite), but seems to be coming back! (Don’t blame me, I never use it.)

Surprisingly the ni/du dichotomy is not very old. Before 1900 one would normally have to use titles to address someone. (cite)

[sub]Sorry, the links are all in Swedish[/sub]

23

Thanks for the benefit of the doubt! Yes, I know it’s “du” and I got it right in the next line:).

According to a link from your link, there was another option at the start of the 20th century, which was to say “Han/Hon” (he/she), and this was seen as more polite than “Ni” but not as intimate as “Du”.

24

Excellent explanation of how it works in Spanish, mhendo.

The perception that “tú” or “vosotros” are the “default” pronouns may derive from how those are the ones used in grammar textbooks to show the second person verb conjugation (since “Usted” takes 3d. person).

According to the 1992 Spanish Academy dictionary, “usted” evolved from “vusted” which was a contraction of “vuestra merced”, but it long ago changed connotation from superiority to just formal respectfulness.

[fixed coding]

[Edited by bibliophage on 12-04-2001 at 11:52 PM]

25

Oh, I’m sorry about that, on rereading I realize that it sounds as if the Danes are meticulously formal, which they most certainly are not - I’ve not seriously used the “De” since leaving the Army in 1987 and I guess I won’t again unless I happen to meet royalty or somesuch. Some squadmates had a hell of a time getting used to it, having never used it before in their lives. But if you’re in a setting where it’s used, the procedure is as described.

Of course, way back in 1950s Scandinavia, the really humble form of address would be the adressed person’s title: “Would the professor like his coffee here or in the study ?” would be how a maid addressed her employer.

    • We shall say “Ni” to you… if you do not appease us.
  • Well what is it you want?
  • We want…(pregnant pause) A SHRUBBERY!!!*

S. Norman (well, you saw that coming, didn’t you ?)
(edited to fix vB code - please use preview)

[Edited by Arnold Winkelried on 12-04-2001 at 04:23 PM]

26

I lived in Germany for a few years and became close with my roommates family. My roommates mother always said “du” to me, and I always said “Sie” to her, preferring to err on the side of caution, which turned out to be the correct approach.

I asked some friends about this strange unequal relationship, and they all said that considering her age and the friendship I have with her son that this is normal, that if she wants me to call her “du” she will say so, but likely will not.

This same roommate had a girlfriend for almost ten years. Although the girlfriend’s mother told my roommate to call her “du” early in the relationship, the father somehow never got around to it.

The awkward thing about using “du” is that you realistically cant take it back once you establish it.

German, by the way, has the verbs duzen and siezen which mean “to use du” and “to use Sie”. You can ask “wollen wir duzen?”, which is a clever way to ask if we should use the informal WITHOUT using formal or informal in the question!

27

I speak Afrikaans - the South African derivative of Dutch/French/slang developed by the first white settlers - and we have the same distinction as described above.

One’s elders and betters are referred to as “u” (pronounced almost like “Oo”, but more guttural) while equals and lessers are referred to as “jou” (pronounced “yo”, but very short, with the sound going down at the end of the word).

The Afrikaans society is very polite and deferential and one will always start off referring to the other as “u” until some level of familiarity is reached. That point would (I guess) be about the same as what Hemlock mentioned - where you go from surname to first name terms. One of the problems for me as a native English speaker is that an Afrikaans speaker will automatically switch to English when they can see (hear) that I am not all that fluent - even if thier English is worse than my Afrikaans, although in this is not true in most cases - which is NOT what I want, since then I don’t improve…

Gp

28

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by hibernicus *
**

I for one feel very insulted when I get address with ni. It’s impolite and only shows that the speaker is totally clueless. The historical background for the use of du/ni is that from the beginning du was the normal way to address one person, regardless of who he was. More that one person were addressed with I (“ni” is a later development in the language). Through the centuries a new usage started to spread where I also was used when you addressed yourself downwards, towards your employees, who still of course said du to their boss. For some odd reason the use of Ni got the meaning hibernicus described, but that is a very recent thing.

It came as heaven on Earth in the early 70-ties when the use of du started spreading through the country and I regret that young people have started using Ni again, thinking they’re polite, which they’re not.

29

Well, I’m glad to know that Pythonic knights show proper respect to John Cleese! :slight_smile: But why were they talking Swedish? I could see the point of Danish in the old Danelaw, but Swedish? (Konig Arthur och Drottning Gvenevere? It is to laugh!)

30

I’m not sure how it works in Spanish, but in French I would generally agree with Mr. Zambezi; however, it’s a matter of “degrees of insulting.” If you’re criticizing, complaining, or having an argument with a waiter/shop attendant/street idiot, you would probably use “vous”; but if you’re insulting them – using swear words, making remarks about their maternal lineage, etc., you’d use “tu.” It’s similar to how in English if you were highly offended by someone and called them on it you might draw yourself up to full height and haughtily say, “You, sir, are lower than the most rotten maggot on my dog’s manure,” whereas if you wanted to say, “Drop dead you mofo shithead,” you probably wouldn’t address the person as “Sir.” In the former you would be using excessive politeness as an insult. (Miss Manners is the master of how to do this.) Believe me, in French you’d never say the latter phrase using “vous” – that’s the kind of insult that requires “tu.”

Spanish could be much different; I don’t speak it well enough to know all those nuances.

31

You call this Swedish: “Røten nik Akten Di” :smiley:

32

IIRC, older versions of modern German had “Ihr” used in a singular sense when addressing a superior, somewhat like “Sie” today. Even stranger, back then they also used “Er” for inferiors, like personal attendants, yet the word “er” really means “he”. Presumably in the inferior-you sense this applied only to males. I imagine that the idea was to show complete disdain for your household staff by talking "about them even while you were talking to them. Which could well be the case when you realize that the German nobility used to refer to non-nobles as having been
“whelped” rather than “born”.

33

When I lived there for a year as an exchange student, the students all called each other “du” from first acquaintance.

34

Yeah, thats standard, Javaman. When to use du and Sie has become muddled there since the sixties. All students always say du to each other all the time now. People in that age group (20s) basically use du all the time as well.

I am a jazz musician and lived in Germany in my mid 20s. Whenever I met another jazz musician, and certainly whenever I played with another musician, I always used du no matter the age difference.

In many situations its unclear. Say you are 25, you talk to the DJ at a dance club who is around 35 or 40. I would say use du because he is a DJ, but you should be careful. If the same person is a cashier at a department store you would use Sie. Its quite common, though, to be confronted with situations where it looks like you should say Sie, and then are told to use du, especially if you are between the ages of 18 and 35, and this is complicated further by the fact that the generation which caused the relaxing of formality is now well into the “always use Sie” age group, and there is a sizable minority which feels uncomfortable with it.

If you arent sure, form your sentences in first person plural (wir, uns: we, us) which is easy to do in German and requires no formality distinction (e.g. “wollen wir gehen?”: Do you want to go? Literally “do WE want to go?”)

By the way, unlike Spanish, Germans use the informal with all family members no matter what the relationship or age difference.

35

I think it’s a little bit of a misconception that the use of “tu” in Spanish necessarily implies a degree of friendliness. Rather, it’s the form you use with those for which there is no need/desire to express deference. In addition to friends, family members, and social equals or inferiors, this includes children, servants, and pets. As a non-native Spanish speaker, in my experience insults or cursing out are almost invariably in the “tu” form. I suppose, however, as in missbunny’s French example, “usted” could be used sarcastically.

Also, as others have pointed out for other languages, use of tu/usted is not necessarily reciprocal. After they have worked with me for a while I may address my younger students/assistants as “tu;” however, some of them continue to address me as “usted” out of deference (as in English a professor may call a student by first name, while the student continues to say “Dr. Smith.”)

36

In Czech there’s a similar phrase tykat - to use ty (informal you) and there’s also vykat - to use vy (formal you), which also shows up in French: vousvoyer. Back to the thing about awkwardness: I guess you’ll definitely be eyed strangely when you don’t adhere to social rules of formality.

This is not even always about whether you use ty or vy; Czech (like other languages) has both a singular and a plural or formal imperative. If you don’t use the formal one, however polite what you were trying to say might be (sth. like ‘excuse me’), you’ll still be eyed strangely.

In Dutch, (my native language) the distinction between je,jij,jou/u and jouw/uw has never really put me in awkward positions, but I guess it comes so naturally that that won’t happen; I think the people that’ll end up in awkward situations are people that don’t have a distinction between formal and informal second person singular and don’t naturally know how to deal.

It did cause me problems talking in Czech which is not my first language, which I guess is mostly cultural; I can’t immediately identify a situation as a formal or an informal one in the Czech Republic (and besides, I think the whole thing is retarded to begin with, so I just tykam and tutoyeer everyone ;j)

I do wonder though, how do English speakers deal with the distinction between you (sg.) and you (pl.) - do you just stay unclear (do you actually prefer that?); do y’all use y’all all the time and does it actually cause weird situations where somebody thinks he or she is included in something you said when they actually weren’t?

37

Disclamer: My knowledge of Japanese is imperfect.

From what I understand of Japanese politeness usage, a verbs conjugation and form change not only according to whom you are taking to, but also whow you are talking of.

The first think a student of Japanese learns is the polite and plain verb conjugation. You have to use the correct one depending to whom you are talking.

Much later a student of Japanese learns the different verb forms. There are three basic ones, and they depend whom you’re talking of. If you are talking of someone you are an equal to, you use the regular form. If, however, you are talking of someone of higher status, you must use the honorific form to describe that persons action and the humble form to describe your own action relative to that other person.

For example, the verb “to eat”:

itadakimasu----------humble, polite
itadaku-----------------humble, plain
tabemasu-------------regular, polite
taberu------------------regular, plain
omeshiagarimasu–honorific, polite
omeshiagaru---------honorific, plain

In addition, many verb have additional forms that may be considered appropriate for other situations. For example, with the verb “to eat”, people, especially men use the verb “kuu”.

It’s also possible to purposely insult someone by appending the verb “yagaru” to the action done by another person to demean it.

That’s just to describe actions that have or will take place. It gets more complex when you consider verb forms for conditionals, volitionals, presumptive, requests/orders, etc.

38

Actually the French spelling is vouvoyer.

39

Colibrí is correct, when someone uses “usted” for insulting someone, it is used sarcastically. And right again with the way to use “tú”. I call my teachers “usted”, until I acquire confidence, or they tell me we can “tutear”. I call my family in “tú”, because of the closeness that already exists. I call older strangers “usted”, but then it is mostly a matter of how you were raised, since some of my friends use “tú” in those cases.

40

In Quebec we don’t vouvoie very much except when dealing with people of a certain age and in business relationships. Even there, I get tutoied a lot, because I’m young. If I don’t know someone, unless they’re my age and/or it’s obviously a situation where I can tutoie them (for example, if I’m cruising them), I usually vouvoie anything that moves.

When I was working at the DQ, I used to vouvoie even the tiniest children, which I’m sure they enjoyed.