There is an op-ed piece in today’s Times by a German named Jochen Bittner who is lecturing the Greeks (and inferentially the rest of us) on morals. Before Germans can lecture us on economic morals, maybe Germany could start by paying off the WWI reparations with 95 years interest, WWII reparations with 70 years interest, their WWII debts that were forgiven in the mid 50s with 60 years interest and, while they are at it, send back the money that they got from the Marshall Plan, also with interest.
For Germany, the country that ruined the 20th century (don’t forget that WWI led directly to Stalin, if not Mao) to lecture others on morality is unmitigated Chutzpah. I cannot believe they can do this with a straight face.
Everyone is saying that to forgive any of Greek debts would create a moral hazard. True enough, but making the banks whole creates one as large. Their heads we win, tails you will guarantee we won’t lose practices not only created this crisis, but also the 2007 meltdown. Notice that the banks lost nothing from their corrupt practices, while the people who lost their homes lost everything. But I digress. Herr Bittner expects the poorest Greek to pay off the richest German. And he lectures us on morality.
There aren’t that many Nazi-era Germans left. Can we take it as read that the later generations aren’t guilty of what their parents and grandparents did?
To be specific: if you were 15 in 1945, which is pretty young to be held responsible for “adult” crimes, you would have been born in 1930. You would be 85 today. No, there aren’t many Nazi-era Germans left at all, and vanishingly few who were deeply involved in the construction of, and the carrying out of, the Nazi atrocities.
Not to downplay the horror of Hitler’s regime, or the complicity of many ordinary Germans in what took place, but…we are talking 70 years since the Hitler era ended. At what point do we stop blaming people for the actions of their parents and grandparents? Some of my ancestors owned slaves, and I was born less than a century after 1865…am I unfit to make moral judgments for that reason?
RTFirefly–I love Tom Lehrer, and I know things seemed different in 1965 or whenever it was, but it’s never struck me as one of his better songs.
Actually, there is a point, not in tit-for-tat “what about” arguments about moral responsibilities, but the simple economic fact that debt relief was part of the foundations of Germany’s economic revival. There are undoubtedly questions about the willingness of Greek governments to do what is necessary to be able to use support from elsewhere to build a solid and productive economy for the future. But assuming this government can do in a few months what previous governments didn’t in five years doesn’t seem like practical politics, still less does, in effect, telling the Greeks they should have elected someone else or have no elected government at all. Nor, given the results, does it seem at all persuasive that the remedies being pushed on the Greeks would work, given that they haven’t in the previous five years (and similar policies aren’t exactly working in the UK either).
German involvement in WWI led to Stalin? Fail.in fact, Bismarkian Germany secured Ukranian independence as part of the peace treaty Germany signed with Russia that was reversed by the Treaty of Versailles.
Germany led to Mao? Amazing fail
Marshall Plan money? All or almost all western countries got it and it was offered to the east. Has anyone paid it back?
The German economy post WWI and WWII actually boosted the international economy as a whole. Greece not so much.
The OP’s wrong about reparations and Marshall Plan loans - Germany paid all those.
But he has a point about Stalin. When the Russian Imperial regime was overthrown in February 1917, it was replaced by an elected republican government. But that government pledged to stay in the war. Germany obviously didn’t want that. So they smuggled Lenin across German occupied territory from Switzerland to Russia so he could overthrow the republican government, which he did in October 1917.
So the reason Russia got a Communist government was thanks to the Germans. And without Lenin taking power in 1917, Stalin wouldn’t have been able to take power later on. Stalin would never have been able to have the absolute power he did if Lenin hadn’t centralized all power into the hands of a few hundred Bolsheviks.
And Bismarck had nothing to do with it. He had died back in 1898.
Greece should immidietly take action under Article 53 and 107 of the UN Charter. These are situations those were placed in the damn thing in the first place.
For the people that don’t have the UN charter memorized
[QUOTE=Article 53]
1.The Security Council shall, where appropriate, utilize such regional arrangements or agencies for enforcement action under its authority. But no enforcement action shall be taken under regional arrangements or by regional agencies without the authorization of the Security Council, with the exception of measures against any enemy state, as defined in paragraph 2 of this Article, provided for pursuant to Article 107 or in regional arrangements directed against renewal of aggressive policy on the part of any such state, until such time as the Organization may, on request of the Governments concerned, be charged with the responsibility for preventing further aggression by such a state.
2.The term enemy state as used in paragraph 1 of this Article applies to any state which during the Second World War has been an enemy of any signatory of the present Charter.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Article 107]
Nothing in the present Charter shall invalidate or preclude action, in relation to any state which during the Second World War has been an enemy of any signatory to the present Charter, taken or authorized as a result of that war by the Governments having responsibility for such action.
[/QUOTE]
I am somewhat dubious of any plan’s chances for success that relies on these two articles.
Let me make it clear. I suggested that Germany did not lead to Mao, but I stick to the claim that it led to Stalin.
It is the unmitigated gall of this guy lecturing the Greeks on economic morality. Does he not know that the failed attempt by Germany to pay the WWI reparations led to economic collapse and eventually to WWII. And what Germany got after WWII was the ability to rebuild their economy, which they are unwilling to give to Greece. Einstein once said that doing the same thing again and expecting a different result is a form of insanity. This is insane behavior.
All of which is not to deny that a lot of Greece’s problems are their own fault. They have to reform the corruption. They have to stop non-payment of taxes as a national sport. But they time and room to do it. German’s hypocracy and lack of historic memory is appalling.
One might say the Germany, having successfully rebuilt their economy, knows what it takes and should be listened to. How many more years of bailouts do the Greeks need to get their shit together?
on a related issue: If you’re going to lecture on morals…you don’t have to go back to the Nazi generation and talk about repayments.
You can blame the younger Germans for irresponsiblity… For 10 years, they happily chose to give huge loans to the Greeks, without investigating the likelihood of getting repaid. Now they’re crying and wonder what happened to their money.
Exactly-the bad state of Greek finances were well known. The amazing thing is that the bank loan officers were happy to take big commissions, knowing full well that the loans could NEVER be repaid. how about a few indictments for bank fraud?
If Germany led to Stalin, then it also led to Mao since Stalin was vital in getting Mao power.
Since Germany once had loans forgiven does it mean that all the loans it makes until the end of time will have to be forgiven or just ones it made to Greece?
AFAIK, Germany never defaulted on any loan. The London Agreement on German External Debts was about war reparations (like the Versailles treaty). Also keep in mind that Germany had about 25 % of its territory disappropriated, the inhabitants were kicked out or killed.
They have to stop non-payment of taxes as a national sport.
The government of Greece is broke. The new government doesn’t want to pay it’s bills. The old governments didn’t want to pay its bills, either. Now the Greek government is demanding even more money. The German, French, and other European taxpayers have money and the Greeks want it. Based on the fact that Greece doesn’t want to pay back the loans it has received, why is anyone surprised that lenders are leery of lending Greece more money.
This current financial situation has nothing to do with either WWI or WWII, unless you’re just trying to play on the sympathies of the Eurozone taxpayers.
The Charter permits any nation to act against agression by any of the enemy countries of WW2… Germany,Italy and Japan. Convinently it does not describe what exactly constitutes agression. Personally,I was ready to invoke it last year during the World Cup final.
I would not be surprised if Tsipras has read up on it… he has thrown the kitchen sink at the issue already.
