Kind of hard to do when they’re walking around in t-shirts with a buck-toothed, English-mangling, straw hat-wearing stereotype on it, don’t you think?
:rolleyes:
Esprix
Um, there’s a difference between culture, stereotypes, and racism. Surely you can see that.
Esprix
Errr…
Why am I here?
Oh yeah. I’m fine, thank you tradesilicon 
I’m not sure who is worse, but I do know who is better. Someone who is totally PC, but believes what they say. I think one should keep in mind that there are stereotypes, and there are negative stereotypes. These shirts are the latter to me.
As for why folks don’t always object to stereotypes, some of them are considered positive stereotypes, so why fight them? It made me think of the following fictitious conversation:
Ill-informed person (IIP): So, is it true that you aren’t as smart as us?
Black man (BM): Nope, that bell curve book was trash science.
IIP: But you descended from apes, and we descended from Adam and Eve, right?
BM: Nope
IIP: Well, what about your um, thing, you know? Is it really bigger?
BM: Yeah, that one’s true.
Esprix wrote:
Yeah. I’ve never ever actually seen an Asian of [n]any** descent with buck teeth, or (outside of Vietnam war movies) wearing a straw hat.
Now, the English-mangling, on the other hand…
So waht is there to laugh at? What is the joke?
A local Chinese restaurant prominently featured grinning, buck-toothed, rickshaw-driving, straw-hat wearing Chinese caricatures on its menus. Is that offensive?
Surprise, the owners of the restaurant are Chinese! Is it still offensive?
Surprise again, the picture was only on the take-out/delivery menu, so most people who see it won’t realize the owners are Chinese. Now is it offensive?
I’m noticing a common theme here of “if group X can make fun of themselves, then it’s o.k. for anyone else to make fun of them”. Are you people seriously not seeing any difference between Chinese people poking fun at themselves, and White people making fun of Chinese people? Because if you don’t see any difference, I’m starting to wonder what planet I’m on.
I think Ambercrombie and Fitch did this for two possible reasons:
-
Their main customers are white college students.
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Any publicity is good publicity, this whole thing will help their
sales. They probably planned this to get people talking about
their piece of shit t-shirts.
Your take in this debate about prejudices is interesting, since in another thread, you didn’t seem to have any issue with displaying your prejudices about french people (something like “everybody is disgusted by the frenchs because… whatever prejudice I can’t remember right now…”). And there wasn’t a hint of humor in your comment (contrarily to this Abercrombie stuff).
So, what makes prejudices about french people OK in your book? Can you give some explanation consistent with your take in this thread?
Sorry for the hijack, I couldn’t help myself…
I don’t see how something offensive suddenly (surprise!) becomes inoffensive just because the person who made it belongs to the group it offends.
Suppose I found a piece of paper on the sidewalk with a caricature of the stereotypical white guy from Spokane: standing in a trailer, listening to Gordon Liddy, trying to dance but failing, with one hand holding a microbrew and the other thumping a Bible.
Now, being a white guy from Spokane myself, I might be offended. But what if someone comes running down the street, says “thanks for finding that paper I dropped”, and I see he’s also a white guy from Spokane? Am I supposed to say “whew, that was close, I almost thought some kind of bigot drew this!” and stop being offended?
Do transsexuals get to make fun of their old gender, or their new gender?
Mr2001: Now you’re being intentional obtuse. You can’t tell me that you haven’t been called an asshole by a friend in the context of a poker game, or some other social event, and thought nothing of it. It would be entirely different if some guy started honking behind you in traffic and called you an asshole. In one instance it is inoffensive and in another it is offensive. Yes, the source of an insult makes a world of difference.
But what it the point of bringing this up in this debate. Are you saying that unless Asians as a group take a zero tolerance approach to every little slight, they don’t have a right to protest anything?
Minorities have a tough time with their image. I would guess that in your example that Asians and whites have told the restaurant owner how inappropriate the images are. Would they have taken a stronger stance is the restaurant owners were not Asian? Definitely. If you can’t understand why, I don’t think any logical argument will make you see that.
But I wouldn’t mind a stranger calling me an asshole during a poker game, as long as it was in jest, the same as if my friend had said it. Likewise, if my friend started honking behind me and yelled “move it, asshole!” I’d probably be offended. The context is what makes the difference.
Although… I can tell when my friends are joking, but I admit that I’d have a harder time being sure that the stranger was really joking.
I’m saying that if the shirt is offensive, it’s offensive no matter who designed it, sold it, or is wearing it. It sounds like some of the posters in this thread would have an epiphany if they found out the source was different - “Oh, an Asian made that shirt? Never mind then!”
Actually, I worked there for most of a year, and my roommate has been there for 3 years, and we haven’t heard of any complaints at all. (The selection and prices changed, however, and the menus were redesigned with a more professional look.)
I know what you’re talking about, but I think you are misinterpreting it. Most of the Asians who have weighed in would find the shirts offensive regardless of who created them. I think most of the non-Asians who find the shirts in bad taste wouldn’t change their feelings about the shirts if it turns out the A&F is an Asian company. I think most would feel that if it was Asians selling these shirts it would not be their place to comment on it, but still find it offensive.
You are absolutely right clairobscur
I * am *prejudiced towards the French. I’m deeply ashamed of it. I try not to, but I can’t help myself sometimes. 
Might it have something to do about the French not liking the Dutch very much? I notice you being on my tail whenever I post.
- excuse about the hijacking too. *
Yes, yes, and yes.
Is this what you are expecting?
I don’t think it is fine for a member of a minority to use a twisted, unfounded image/caricature of said group as a means to promote sales or any business-related activities. Sure, there can be exceptions. In a film depicting the Chinese history in the US from 1800-1900, you may run into a number of these short, straw-hat wearing people. Then again, that would be a fact, not a twisted caricature.
The problem with the images on these shirts are they are inextricably linked to an era where the Chinese were subjected to widespread discrimination and ridicule. I would surmise some second or third generation American Born Chinese with no knowledge of this period of history could find the shirts funny, but not to any Chinese who knows about it.
As I argued in another thread, would Americans feel offended if some other group pokes fun of 911?
If you were offended, I think it means that you have an amazing sensitivity to what it means to be a white guy from Spokane.
Not that I’ve ever been there, of course.
Along those lines, don’t people make fun of Texans all the time? And don’t Texans make fun of themselves? If I found a caricacture of a Budweiser-drinkin’ redneck up and a’ shootin’ tin cans in his yard while yellin’ YEE-HAW, I would think it was a bit silly, but wouldn’t be offended. It wouldn’t make any difference if the caricacture I found was drawn by someone from Texas or from New York; I would judge the drawing itself on whether it was funny or unfunny.
And caricactures can be funny. Something that’s obviously a caricacture is ipso facto a recognizable distortion of real life. Very often, they are a purposefully ironic representation of other people’s misconstrued perceptions, either past or present. The act of making fun of those perceptions might, in some cases, defuse their power and make them funny instead of hateful.
Of course, some things just don’t strike us as funny. “I don’t get it” or “I don’t think it’s funny” doesn’t do anything to support the idea that the A&F shirts are racist–just that they are not funny.
So I think the issue of whether some representation is humorous, and whether it’s racist, can usually be divided into two separate questions. For example, some things can be funny but also deeply, deeply racist–and to be confronted with something like that is very disturbing. If you want to get a sense of this, I’d suggest watching Spike Lee’s Bamboozled.
I didn’t see this train wreck in addition to the other one. One thing that irks my drawers is that the Chinese characters used in the T-shirts are nonsensical. Jesus H Christ, you might as well be accurate than just cobbling together some really outdated stereotypes, tired play on words (maybe it is the first time you have heard these, but I’d be willing to bet big bucks most Asian-Americans have heards these ad nausem), making fun of accented English, and throwing in some Chinese character that was cut out of a magazine for lack of anything better. Do something real rather than trot out some rather tired cliches
No one has addressed the question of why the cartoons are funny, and I think the issue is relevant. If a non-Asian is wearing one of those shirts I can’t see anything funny. If an Asian is wearing the same shirt there is a level of irony which is funny.
The issue of why the shirts are funny is an important one. I would really like to know.