Just randomly scanning through this thread . . . this statement stood out, though. It’s ironic that one would say that the shirts are offensive, and then back up the assertion with a patently offensive statement like that.
Two reasons:
[ul]
[li]You say “For the Asians”, ignoring all the Asians who are Christians, Taoists, Shintoists, Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims, and atheists. If you tried making that assertion in (very, very) Muslim Indonesia, you would be in a boatload of trouble. Dare I say it, but do you think you are stereotyping just a little bit?[/li]
[li]You say “Buddha is god”. No, he isn’t. “The” Buddha, Sakyamuni, was an Indian prince who (according to Buddhists) who showed his fellow humans the way out of an otherwise undending cycle of reincarnating misery. [/li][/ul]
In order to get some sense of what you’ve said just now, think about if we were considering a T-shirt that featured the Virgin of Guadalupe, and you jumped in and said that "I can see the problem with the Mary T-shirt. For Hispanics, Mary is a goddess."
One of my favorite jokes is the following song, sung to the tune of the “Battle Hymn of the Republic”:
Jesus puts his money in the Bank of Montreal
Jesus puts his money in the Bank of Montreal
Jesus puts his money in the Bank of Montreal
Jesus saves!
Jesus saves!
Jesus saves!
I’m a Christian, and if I saw that on a T-shirt I would laugh (or at least I would if the joke weren’t so old by now). If anything, I tend to think that Buddhists have a more lighthearted attitude toward their faith than Christians. It might be a good idea not to project your own uptightness onto people you don’t seem to know that much about.
ignatzmouse: Why did some people find “ALL YOUR BASE IS BELONG TO US” funny? Who knows? As I said just now, I think the issues of whether something is funny and whether it’s racist are two separate questions.
If you think about any joke, you can identify the funny element. Not everyone will agree that it is funny, but they should be able to understand the explanation. “All you base are belong to us” was funny to people for different reasons in different contexts. Originally it was funny because the conquering force in some video game was using such inept syntax. Later it was funny because it was a shared “in” joke (I know what that means and everyone else doesn’t), later it was funny as a non-sequitur. Finally it was funny as a prank - repeating the phrase even though others were annoyed at it. I didn’t find any of these funny, but I can understand the source of the humor.
Several people have said that the shirts are funny but not racist. All I want to know is what element of the shirts is funny. We can assume it is not the funny looking pictures of Asian people, nor the reference to stereotypical occupations, nor the association of mangled English with Asian immigrants, nor the association with a figure considered holy by many Asian people with one’s ass, nor the implication that Asians are half the people that whites are.
What is this joke that Asian Americans are supposed to be “learn to laugh at?” How can they learn if y’all refuse to let them in on the joke?
I disagree, ignatzmouse. I think humor always has an intangible element, and any joke that is perfectly explainable is also perfectly unfunny. Look at the comic strip “Nancy”, for example–I’ve heard that some people find it fascinating precisely because it has this perfect adherence to comic form that, in and of itself, eliminates any possible humor that one might derive from its little vignettes.
As for the humor that can be found in caricactures, I think I already posed one possible anwser to that question a few posts up. If you’re really interested in the question, I’m sure that you can find books on this topic in your local library, under the “humor” section.
Here you prove my point. You have described why “Nancy” is funny even though you don’t share the appreciation.
Those who find these shirts funny have said that it is NOT the racist element they find funny. Am I really to understand that you and “horhay” actually think there is something wrong with Asian people who cannot share the humor in these charicatures? You say these are funny because they are over the top and campy. Over the top of what? I can only assume that you mean that they are so racist that no one should take them seriously, and that because of this, the protesters must be politically motivated. Can you not see the absurdity of this argument? A corollary to this argument would be that a less racist shirt should be protested. Would you go along with that? Is there any point at which the shirts could go too far over the top? I assume so. What exactly are the boundries of this funny “over the top” zone that Asian Americans should, in your opinion, learn to enjoy?
I’m sorry, ignatzmouse, but there’s no point in my responding to you any further if you don’t bother to read what I write. You’re lumping me in with the general community of people that you disagree with, and in doing so attribute views to me that I do not espouse.
If you go back and read what I’ve written in this thread and the other one, I think you’ll find that this is the case.
So, until you brush up on your reading and/or attention skills . . . seeya.
On the contrary, it is impossible to debate with you if you insist on misrepresenting what you have said.
So the protesters are “thin skinned” because they don’t agree share your opinion of what is acceptably over the top, but theere is nothing wrong with them?
(The implication here being that those protesting imply such a comparison, otherwise how would this statement be relevant to the argument?)
Admit it, your concept of the “Zone of acceptably extreme racism” is patently ridiculous, so you are trying to change the subject.
Remember the first rule of the SDMB: Everything you have said is still there.
I think it should be clear that I do not endorse the view that the T-shirts are funny because they are not really racist. It appears that you lack the cerebral power to make distinctions between your opponents, ignatzmouse, so I bid you good day.
OK, I see your point now. I failed to say “Some of those who…” Do you want to know the truth? When I typed that originally, I checked back to make sure that you had actually said that. When I realized what your argument actually was, I was honestly so astonished that I failed to make that minor change.
What you seem unable to comprehend is that in the very next paragraph I directly addressed your view that it is the racism in the shirts that is funny. If you have any interest in the truth actually read my post as you have admonished me to read yours.
Your position that they are funny because they are racist, but that it is OK because they are SO racist is patently absurd. I hope you have the “cerebral power” to understand that. Pretending that you are taking your ball and going home doesn’t mean you are right, it just means you are childish.
In one of my English classes, there is a Korean girl who does not speak English very well. During a presentation she made on a Korean book we read (Native Speaker), she talked about the differences in English and Korean pronunciation. Afterwards, when she was talking about immigration rates, she made a pronunciation mistake that she had said was common with Korean-Americans. She teased herself about it - stopped mid-sentence, and said “See, I said it!” and laughed at herself.
Had someone else in the class - anyone, Korean or not - pointed out her mistake, I would have understood her being offended. The question in my mind is not whether some people have a right to be offended by stereotypes, or when those stereotypes become unoffensive. The question I have is why anyone needs to resort to such stereotypes in the first place. And I would say that people resort to such stereotypes as a means of seperating themselves from the group in question and attempting to establish their superiority, regardless of whether the racism is disguised as a joke or not.
A joke about “hook-nosed Jews” is as racist as a tract written by a Nazi arguing that Jews must be eliminated for ethnic purity. I don’t think the issue over one being interpreted as funny is at all important; what’s important is that someone feels that such a viewpoint is valid and feels they have the right to argue it. What do the joke and the political tract have in common? Both are pointing out the negative differences between Jews and themselves and placing themselves in a position of superiority. And that is NOT funny, cool, “campy,” or acceptable.
The A&F t-shirts are as racist as if the company had printed a list of words commonly mispronounced by Asians in their catalogue. One might be funny, but they both uphold negative stereotypes about peoples who do not blend in with the primary culture. The end result of both is seperating and marginalizing the minority group, which I find racist and offensive.
Well then, it comes down to that assumption, doesn’t it? That is, any joshing reference to some stereotype is ipso facto a put-down. This might be one of those things where people just have to disagree, but I don’t think that’s always the case.
That is, I think there is a comfort zone where people can joke about (real or perceived) differences as more of an ice-breaker between people rather than as a means of putting up walls between one another. Teasing one of your friends about her Irish temper or his Nordic blond-haired-blue-eyed features isn’t going to get you branded as a racist, is it?
This goes back to my thesis, that as various groups become increasingly assimilated within our society, the stereotypes kind of come full circle and a teasing remark that might have gotten you a knuckle sandwich a century ago will instead be met with humor and delight.
So to me, it comes back down to where these obviously stereotypical images fit within the cycle of assimilation that various Asian groups are undergoing. And again, what probably got A&F into trouble was their observation that one particular group (maybe some Chinese American college students) thought it was funny, and assumed that the Korean grocer in South Central LA would feel the same way.
So A&F may also have been guilty of a form of prejudice in that they assumed one group of Asians (maybe through some kind of test marketing) would represent the views of a very fragmented, very heterogeneous group of people that perhaps shouldn’t be labeled a “community” at all.
My two best friends are Filipino and Black. I can say with total honesty that we have never once made jokes about our different ethnicites. It never came up. I don’t think it would be funny if it did. Perhaps we simply have different preceptions of the remarks in question. If I were to make a comment about “watermelon-eatin’ darkies” to my black friend, I would rightly assume she would be insulted. And surely you can see the difference between a joke about hair color and a joke that upholds negative stereotypes about the roles of Chinese immigrants in America?
I understand your point about assimiliation. But I think you have to realize that some people are never going to cease being offended by negative stereotypes, and we have to respect that. We live in a multi-cultural society, and in order for that society to run smoothly, we have to make considerations for the sensitivies of the different cultures.
I suggest you (or anyone interested in this thread) reads The Woman Warrior by Maxine Hong Kingston. Interestingly enough, her Chinese immigrant parents owned a laundry. She deals very much with her attempts at assimilation, with how difficult is was for her to bridge the gap between Chinese culture and American culture. She also addresses many interesting issues about Chinese-feminine vs. American-feminine.
Just because Group A makes fun of Group B while some members of Group B aren’t offended isn’t a defense of why Group T can make fun of Group Q. This “Me too” defense is generally considered a fallacy.
I really must disagree with all of you who insist that racially offensive statements must exist in some sort of philosophical vaccuum, i.e. “would it still be racist if so-and-so said it?”. In the real world, racism does not occur in a vacuum; I think the identity of the person who made the statement is the whole point. When Mel Brooks makes a joke about Jews, it’s hilarious. If Yassar Arafat made the same joke, I don’t think it would be funny. And I’m sorry to all my fellow white people in America, but just because because blacks, asians, native americans, jews, etc. enjoy relatively more opportunities than they did, say, 50 years ago, we are not yet at the point where we get to ignore an entire history of oppression.
I think Abercrombie erred in trying to mass-market something that they considered to be self-deprecating humor. The problem is, a corporation doesn’t really have a racial identity. Even if the CEO were Asian, it just doesn’t work on that level. If one Chinese guy set up a stand on the street corner and sold similar shirts, I doubt there would be much of a protest.
Also, I have to agree that I don’t find the shirts funny at all. Maybe that’s part of why they are so offensive - they aren’t even the slightest bit clever. “All your base…” was funny precisely because it was not intended to be funny. It just happens to be amusing when someone attempts to translate an unfamiliar language and the results come out wrong. For the same reason, it was amusing when a Chinese store spelled Coca Cola phonetically in Chinese characters, and the meaning came out as “bite the wax tadpole”. It’s funny because it was an inadvertent mistake - it wasn’t some corporate employee making a t-shirt saying “ha, ha - asians have buck teeth and they can’t say their “r’s” right.”
And while those shirts aren’t good. Overall I think that Asians have made out like bandits in the “stereotype” department. It has become acceptable for mainstream society to automatically assume that Asian people are the smartest in the world.
It might be funny when Mel Brooks says it, but it’s still racist. We just overlook racism against Jews when it comes from the mouth of a Jew, because “he doesn’t really mean any harm.”
He brings up a funny stereotype and we say “ha ha, that’s true, a lot of Jews really are like that.” If Arafat brought up the same stereotype in the same context, even if he meant it as a joke rather than an insult, we’d say “wtf? I know a lot of Jews who don’t do that!” even though the stereotype is equally true in either case.
Boss has tough problem to solve.
Boss gives problem to “smart” Asian employee to handle.
Employee can’t solve the problem.
Boss wonders if the employee is lazy/defective/whatever and considers getting a replacement.
In a similar vein, “Asians are hard-working employees” isn’t always a good stereotype to wear, especially if you’re an Asian who doesn’t want to work 70-hour weeks without overtime…