"Getting" America

I tried to figure an appropriate forum for this but its not quite a GQ and not quite a request for Café Society book recommendations. If it’s in the wrong forum … apologies.

I’m trying to “get” America.
America, Americans and Americana.

I find myself increasingly frustrated that I am unable to find an authoritative or knowledgeable source of the kind of information that I seek and so do I turn to the fighters of ignorance.

I’ve been reading Fear’s Empire by Ben Roper, Bush In Babylon by Tariq Ali and An Alliance At Risk by Laurent Cochen Tanugi . Diverse and too modern all of them, all flawed, all missing the point. (not their point , my one)

I have my own ideas, I see what is interpreted as naiveté by most is not the product of a failed education system (as is widely suggested and propounded by the authors above) but rather the product of a different and new mindset.

There seems to be at the core of an American an idealism and belief that makes up for what it lacks in the sort of historical grounding other nations place so much stock in by being almost fundamentalist in the fervour with which it is held. It is this idealism and belief in the very *goodness * of America which will see mothers wave their sons off to war , voyaging to places heretofore unheard of to fight evil.

This origin of the belief in this essence of goodness is what I’m chasing.

So often this is seen as a nouveaux imperialism, all the global policing yadda yadda , but you cannot put it down to that when you sit at the bar in Charlotte’s airport and chance to overhear two veteran’s talking. I suspect I could ask these men who Archduke Ferdinand was and to be met with at best blank stares and have my exit serenaded with muttering about the effeminate nature of pseudo intellectual euro trash. But can I feel in anyway superior? Men like these were there in the war that ensued following that incident.

A Californian girlfriend told me once how offended she felt when I mentioned wanting to visit Vietnam. She told me that she would never go and that even now has a hard time buying Vietnamese or Korean produce. I thought this the height of hypocrisy and gross sentimentalism. It was later that I learned what being in Vietnam had done to her father and consequently. In all the sensationalism of the movies etc. it is so easy to forget that men in their late 40’s and 50’s were there. It is that recent.

These are just two of the so so many stories like this which all point to the fact that there seems to be an utterly admirable collective pride and unshakable belief in the U.S of A in the U.S of A and yet it is something that seems to require no justification. There is no rational basis for it.

Let me rephrase, there seems no general awareness of the rational basis for it.

So how can I quantify and understand (and indeed sign up) ?
So the more I know the more I expose my own lack of understanding of just what the American Psyche is.

I’ve tried hard to find writings on this and the best I can come up with is the work of Emerson.

It was there I found a useful section which kind of explains what I am looking for.

In Novelist and Realist he writes “I wish to speak with respect of all persons, but sometimes I must pinch myself to keep awake, and reserve the due decorum. They melt so fast into each other, that they are like grass and trees, and it needs an effort to treat them as individuals. ….” He goes on in quite uncomplimentary fashion about the differences between these “uninspired” “conveniences” and “divine” men such as his own good self. Regardless of that …

That struck a cord because it is exactly the Grass and the Trees that I am trying to understand. What makes an American tick? I have proved I do not have the skill time and again when trying to talk to the people I have met. I cannot make what I am asking understood.

So perhaps someone can point me in the direction of something that will help me understand americas past and the development of the psyche that is encountered in the grass and trees ?

I think that whatever it is you’re trying to get is only part of America. I think that you’ve generalized from the attitudes of some Americans to all Americans.

There is no national psyche anywhere, so you’re on a wild goose chase. There are trends, but that’s all.

For a historical grounding, try the writings of Alexis deTocqueville.

For a contemporary view, maybe try Notes from a big country, Bill Bryson.

I agree with Wendell Wagner, and I’d suggest that you’d probably learn more from talking to as many Americans as possible rather than reading books about them.

I understand what you’re asking, but I don’t think there’s a single place you can go to learn “this is why Americans act like Americans.”

Here are some possible explanations:

The U.S. is big (even the original colonies were big at the time.) That gives us a sense of space (and grandeur) that Europeans don’t easily comprehend.

We were founded on optimism. Another thing I don’t think Europeans understand is our identity as “a nation of immigrants.” Whether our ancestors were trying to escape something (persecution) or pursue something (wealth) they all concluded that things would be better here. They passed that optimism to their children, and it continues to infuse our national character.

We’re blessed with abundant resources (go back and read the lyrics to America the Beautiful, which dates back to the 19th century) As a result, we never want and can always be counted on shipping a few cargo boats of grain to wherever the latest disaster is.

We have a religious fervor. That does not mean we belong to a religion or even particularly believe in God. But many of the earliest settlers were missionaries or religious communities that believed that coming to America was part of God’s plan. Remember, America the Beautiful was originally written to be a church hymn.

Okay my phrasing is off.

Living in the states means that I have little else to so than talk to americans. On this current trip back home I am trying to garner what I have seemed to learn and find i get no fuirther in understandign the nature of the American.

I just cant seem to crack the skin of what I am asking about.

I tried so desperatly to not be seen as generalising but it is a general issue.

Thanks Kunilou ,
Given your answer you do seem to understand what I’m asking.

Also, remember that America is not only a land of plenty but of peace. Unlike Europe it’s been 130+ years since any parts of the United States have been devastated by war.

This leaves a feeling of invulnerability often. Of the ability to create things that will last. It’s also a huge boon to our long term economics as basic infrastructure isn’t continually destroyed by war.

Judging from your choice of books, I strongly suspect you are from the UK. (A quick aside: when did Tariq Ali become an expert on the US educational system?)

I grew up in the US, spent time in Canada, then seven years in the UK. One point I noticed when I spoke to my British friends (and my in-laws, as I was married to a Britisher), was the strange, IMHO, need to “get” or “understand” America. “I don’t understand America. Why do they do X?” was a common question directed to me. Frankly, I couldn’t understand the near-obsession. There was no similar concern about “getting” France or Germany or Spain, even among dedicated Europhiles I knew. There wasn’t really even a concern about me “getting” the UK.

It almost seemed to me that my British colleagues wanted the US to be a place of monolithic opinion, so they could understand it better. An example might be the common refrain of “Why are Americans so puritanical, yet Hollywood is so obsessed with sex?” The idea that the puritanical Americans and sex-obsessed Americans might not be the same people didn’t seem to matter. (I found that question extremely amusing myself, since the break between “puritanism” and “hedonism” is if anything even more sharply delineated in the UK.) Another was to take US television as a perfect mirror of US society. If you asked anyone in the UK, “Would you say British television paints an accurate portrait of British society?” you’d rightly be considered crazy. Yet I was once asked in all seriousness if my high school was like Beverly Hills 90210 or if I knew anybody like the ya-hoos who appear on Jerry Springer.

Most troubling to me personally was the assumption that I was “not like an American.” I remember one conversation I had with a local woman at our church in Oxford. I can’t recall what we started talking about, but out of the blue she started ranting about how she’d never visit America because “people all shoot each other over there” and “people are obsessed with guns.” After a few minutes of this my wife couldn’t stand it anymore and said that I was from the US (by this stage in my stay there my accent and mannerisms had changed so much most people thought I was a local). The woman apologized, saying that she never thought I was American because I “didn’t talk loudly” and I was not “overbearing” or “thought my country was the best.” I was more offended by her apology than her earlier comments. Where is it written that Americans all act the same, think the same, talk the same way?

In summary, I would urge you not to try to “get” America. Try to “get” people instead. Understand what a person thinks, not what “a people” think.

< stands up and claps for Duke >

Thanks for the input Duke.

I want to try to stress again that I am not trying to understand people. It is the overarching concept of what it means to be an american that i am trying to understand.

I get people pretty well.

What I’m asking is quite abstracted from interpersonal relationships.

I know that will prompt accusations of sterotyping but that’s honestly not my intention.

I take your point that it is unusual for europeans to try to “get” each other. Perhaps this is because of a long history and streotyping means that society has already dictated the mindset held by the majority in regards as to how other nations are percieved.

The great experiment is still so new that there is no historical precident and lets be honest there is no country around that has the kind of presence America has today.

Addressing your other points :

Im not from the UK

Tariq Ali’s credentials as a commenator cannot be questions for he moonlighted as a Substiture Teacher in Idlewild Elementary in Memphis for well over 3 years and was even awarded a " Super Duper Teach" award for his efforts

I will have to digest the rest of what you wrote. Thanks for the input.

And another question:

If we can determine that ther is an American Psyche what effect does media have on it ?

The only overarching concept is: There is no overarching concept.

The US is one of the most diverse places on earth. You have significant populations of all manner of people, from religious fundies to communists, sovereign Indian tribes, immigrants from all over the globe, and descendents of those immigrants. You have 50 sovereign states united in a strong union, but each one retains a distinct cultural, economic and social heritage. About the only thing that I see as coming close to universal is that many Americans don’t identify themselves as “American,” but as “Irish” or “German” or “Russian” or some other nationality, even if they are far removed from their ancestors who emigrated here.

Honestly, if the OP weren’t coming off as so naive, I’d feel really insulted by this.

Looking at the US under a big microscope to try to distill us down to base psychological underpinnings is, well, wierd. Your offhanded quip about “the great experiment” serves only to objectify a nation composed of numerous cultures as nothing more than an ant farm.

If you want folks to really help you out with whatever your quandry is here, I suggest you start speaking a little more plainly and don’t act like an announcer dissasecting a football match.

APOC said:

The Great Experiment - Of which experiment are you refering to? If you want an indepth look at what you perceive as the American Psyche, why not try looking into the question itself? Sometimes the answer lay with-in.

You are actually leaps and bound closer than you think to finding out what it means to be an American.
I can’t seem to crack the skin of what I am asking about
Most likely because it is difficult for you to see that my South African American friend is actually an American Citizen. As is his Brother from Tanzania. And my collegue from Dehli. All are Americans raised with-in their own cultural groups. Ask them who they are, some will say American, others will say South African. Identifying with our nationality is APOC a decidedly personal thing. When someone asks me my nationality, I think where my own personal heritage comes from. For me I had a set of Grand parents from Belgium, and a set from Poland. Of that I have further relations in Finland and Norway.
To ask what the nature of being American is, means you are asking what the Nature of America is. The Nature of America is freedom to live where you wish, say what you please, worship who you want to worship, so on and so forth. The Nature of being an American is Freedom to become anyone you wish to become. It is not Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Smith + Wesson, Bush, Rock & Roll, Guns Money and Greed…No Its the freedom to carry a gun, make money and do with it what you please.

I don’t really think that’s true. Many Americans identify themselves by their ancestry, but most will identify as American also.

i’m not sure your answer lies so much in the grass and trees as it does in Hollywood.

i believe America is, more than about any other country in the world, the land where A Man Can Reinvent Himself. our mental makeup has wholeheartedly bought into the Horatio Alger mythology (poor boy, by dint of his hard work/honesty/good behavior, pulls himself up in society to achieve wealth/fame/good fortune), although the shine may be wearing off that particular fable in the face of current realities. certainly our history, as received by the average Joe on the corner from the hands of the earlier movies and popular fictional writing, has usually cast America as the penultimate Good Guy. we fought off those bloody British and created Democracy. (hogwash, but the simplistic view always sells best.) we Civilized the West. (and massacred, bullied, cheated and marginalized the indigenous peoples whenever we could get away with it.) we stepped in and helped finish those nasty wars overseas, after all those furriners went and got themselves into such messes. i think you should get the drift by now…

Hollywood made mucho bucks sanitizing and mythologizing the American past (even, at times, while it was being played out in real life). and in a country where intellectualism seems, at times, to be viewed with suspicion (if not downright antagonism), these Good Guy myths are good enough to consume and believe in, rather than spend too much time and effort digging out the actual facts on one’s own.

that, and the fact that up until now (or maybe up until the end of the Vietnam Era), we’ve always managed to be the winning team. who’s to say there may not be a small element of the old “Might makes Right” mindset at play as well?

my two cents, less state and local taxes.

APOC, it’s been my experience that the biggest problem Europeans have with North America is the friggin size of the thing.

Countries like Belgium, England, Norway et al are small enough that any citizen can get anywhere else in the country within a day’s drive.

That’s an impossibility in North America, and it affects the ‘national mindset’, such as it is.

The US isn’t some homogenous lump of 300 million people who all think and believe the same claptrap. There’s no reason for a wal-mart employee in Tucson to have anything in common with a wannabe actor in LA, or a taxi driver in Milwaukee, or a stockbroker in NYC. Hell, those four mythical people probably don’t even watch the same TV shows, let alone read the same papers. The geography alone prevents it.

The only generality you can make about Americans is that most of them have never bothered to get a passport, and almost all of them can recite a pledge of blind faith to a flag.

I’ve had a passport for 20 years, and my pledge has never been blind. Then again I’m the wanna-be actor son of a Milwaukee taxi cab driver who’s wife works at walmart… Come on now. Statements like that breed and feed peoples poor generalized concept on what America really is.

As for the rest of your post. I agree, geography plays a huge role in how we perceive our surroundings, and our world. I’m from New Engand, schooled here through college. Then grad school in Arizona. Talk about two completely different worlds. Everything in AZ (phoenix) is so trendy, everyone worried about how they look. Back here in NE it’s less so, and more of a fast paced conservatism…Then again I moved back from AZ with my wife, to take a teaching job at a liberal arts college in NE…I just like the foliage :wink:

Agree with all here who say there is will be impossible to “get” Americans. So I will offer my own view from Canada:

Read/watch/hear as much as possible. You can never “get” Americans - there is no “end point” where you can say you understand them. (This of course is true of any culture, or even any group of people.) But you can have a greater or lesser understanding and the more you learn the more you will want to learn. Keep in mind, as others have said, that things are massively different in different parts of the country.

My two main sources of Americana (ever since I stopped getting TV signals out of Western New York) are these boards, and fiction novels. Good authors: John Irving, Tom Wolfe, Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

Music - country, blues, Dylan-esque folk - is also good for getting a different kind of feel of the place.

There’s a great film called 1969 about all the crazy stuff that happened in America that year - basically the convergence of the anti-war and civil rights movements, culminating in the assassination of Robert Kennedy. I wept at the end and I couldn’t care less about Robert Kennedy ! it was an insightful look into the way people were feeling at the time.

Sorry to nitpick…

Robert Kennedy was shot in 1968 actually. That doesn’t mean the film 1969 should necessarily have omitted the event, despite its title. The assassination was still very much on people’s minds the next year. I’m just sayin’.

Bryson’s book is known in the U.S. (and possibly Canada?) as The Lost Continent: Travels in Small-Town America. If you’re ordering it here, that’s the title you’ll likely need. Publishers sometimes re-title books for other countries, even other English-speaking countries, as they did for this one. I have no idea why.

A good and very funny book. I second the recommendation.

As others have pointed out, and you yourself have admitted, this is a pretty quixotic quest to undertake. Is there some more specific part of the American mystique that we could help illuminate?

Otherwise this will become a haggle over broad stereotypes, positive and negative, foreign and domestic. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

Well harrumph, I was in the American educational system for 22 years, and also taught in it for 3. Admittedly, no one ever voted me “Super Duper Teach” (those brats). Still, I’ll take on this Mr. Ali any day of the week, whatever he has to say.

If there is an “American Psyche” (which I don’t concede), it probably influences the media as much, or more, than the media influences it. We have a free market after all, in the media as in nearly everything else, so people will tend to gravitate to whatever suits them.

Thanks you all for the replies this far.
You’ve been most indulgent.

**Freido ** , you say there is no overarching concept.

Is there then no sense of collective grief at recent events?

Is there then no shared tongue in cheek pleasure at the emergence of Freedom Fries ?

Is there then nothing to be read into the undeniably strong reaction provoked by hearing the Star Spangled Banner ?

Is there nothign to be read into the nationwide presumption of rightness in the American ideal and love of democracy ?

What of the belief in citizens rights and the presumption of the superiority of the constitution and the widespread yearning for a return of a Camelot style era … all nothing ?

In my experience there seems to be a quintessential essence of American that can almost be taken for granted , it underpins at a fundamental level all else that goes to constitute a citizen.

All else defies categorization given the diversity of people and opinion. It is that when it comes down to it , there are certain things which all americans can agree on regardless of ideology , political leanigns etc. …

It Seems. In My Experience. I may well be misguided.
In my defense I am asking the questions. In recognition of my lack of understanding and have turned to the self proclaimed fighters of ignorance.

Gordon Heap believes I am beign hoplessly Naive , perhaps.

but the “national mindset” as Barbarian calls it is not something of my construction . Neither is the concept of a shared national Psyche. Nor is it peculiarly American , I think Jiim might have heard of the effect of the famine on his adopted countries national Psyche, it is apparently still a factor today.

Barbarian suggests that size is a factor in the European tendancy to try to define a national character. The countries you mention all have a flavour , and easily distiguishable charctacteristics. Are you suggesting that the US is so large that it defies categorization of the same kind as more concentrated smaller nations do ?
**Gordon Heap ** , thank you for not allowing this to offend , I’m being as careful as I can not to insult. The phrase "the Great Experiment " is an old world term (admiddently with some unattractive colonial type undertones) previously used to describe America. I just used it becasue my inner thesaurus rebelled at typing America too often.
**Bytegeist **
I do trust that you were picking up on the sarcastic nature of the ridiclous assertions I made on behalf of Tariq Ali , to the best of my knowledge he has never been a teacher. I was being slightly fascetious. However I absolutley respect your experience as an educator and award you the APOC Respectful Nod of the Head Award for what little it is worth.
Phlosphr
Thanks for the succint defintion.
Thanks for the recomendations for Bill Bryson and Alexis deTocqueville. I’m awaiting delivery. Ive already exausted J.Irving’s body of work but will certainly look into the others mentioned. Any thing else ?

I remain well aware of the incredible size and diversity of the US.
Its the thread that binds I seek to know.
Putting geography , nationality , origin , political allegiance etc. all aside there seems to be something that most citizens share.

I may well be utterly mistaken and that indeed there is nothing to the concept of a National Psyche but ill be shattered that I could be so wrong. Rather that than ignorant.

Thanks all.