The IDEA of the US - what does it represent to you?

Great Debates
1

I’m from Northern Ireland. I thought I’d get that out of the way first as I know how little regard you hold for external comment on your way of life, your culture, your ideals and your country. So I will try to make this as quick, honest and as positive as I can, without apology or remorse.

I am in awe of the structural ideas and concepts of government suggested, and generally upheld, by your founding fathers and your constitution. I am a total sucker for the forces of freedom, fairness, equality, hope, justice, respect, honesty and integrity; generally the values espoused by those who wrote your constitution, and those who continue to value your current way of life. These values exist in other places, have in fact existed longer elsewhere, but your light is (generally) brighter and more obvious so, I admit, like a moth I am drawn to it.

I really admire your case law, its history, the structure of jurisprudence. I’m impressed by how the constitution, acting as the skeleton, allows the muscle of judicial decision to hang openly on its frame. The simplicity of overview, with the complexity of detail, allows layman and scholar both to feel deeply involved and knowledgeable about historical, landmark decisions.

I admire your film industry; not specifically Hollywood and the blockbuster movies, although I enjoy them. I love the second tier movies; the intellectual, challenging, smaller budget, ideas driven movies, even when they ultimately miss the mark artistically. ‘The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena’ as Roosevelt once said. Your sports; I watch and I learn, but as yet I’m sorry to say I can’t fully appreciate. I grew up on a diet of cricket, football (soccer) and rugby, so YOUR football and your baseball, however intriguing, have yet to ring my bell. But this is factor of my deficiency, not yours. Different strokes.

I admire your complex diversity of heritage, even when, conversely, it is best expressed by the conflict between those of varying ethnicity. A melting pot of Europeans, Africans, Asians, Native Americans and ‘Americans with a Latin flavour’ all living together in relative* harmony. I’m obviously glossing over your nation’s original sin, but as recent events may well have changed that particular perspective so fundamentally we cannot yet express or fully understand the larger picture.

Most of all I admire the value and the ideal of the ‘America dream’. For me it is not the standard financial dream of ‘money and success at any cost’ that it may be for some, as this for me is a direction devoid of morality. For me, it is best embodied in a devotion to a specific duty, a detached faith in the rightness of a certain approach; a promise to all, a self-evident truth that can frame a life, give it understanding and make a difference. It represents an uncertain path, a challenge, but ultimately something to be overcome and by that bring a level of personal betterment.

You, as citizens of the US, have a lot to be thankful for. A structure, a history, a willingness of the people collectively to ensure these values are espoused, retained and continued. The protection of law is respected universally. You may not often agree on the way forward, but the vehicle in which the journey forward should be taken is never in doubt, regardless of personal ideology. I admire that common approach.

There are of course a full list of things I don’t find remotely appealing about your country, but they would mainly be you garden variety political /religious / imperialistic complaints you’ve heard voiced a thousand times on this board, so I’ll leave them aside for another time. I also think they happen to be ephemeral, fleeting, contemporary issues, not a fundamental component of that which makes your country tick. And for this moment at least, they can be set aside with impunity.

ALL of the above aside, my proposed debate here is this:

Part 1: For you, personally; what do you think of first when you here the word 'America**? What is, to you, the current idea of America? What does it stand for, or represent? Is it fragile, something you can only whisper for fear of it breaking, something that can be easily overturned, broken or lost? Or is it completely robust, a strong beacon of freedom and justice, checks and balances? Is it something *more * than an idea, a physical reality represented by certain structures, deeds or acts, either at home or around the globe?

**Part 2: **What direction should the vehicle be taking? What is its role? Should the US be predominately looking out solely for itself in a time of global uncertainty, ensuring its own citizens future comfort despite the needs of others outside its borders; or should it be forming alliances, building collations and forging links in an effort to be part of a larger community? Or both, some middle path suitable to building and assisting the betterment of all? Destination… where?

What are your thoughts? Your replies can be practical, political, philosophical or witty. Just don’t be boring! :slight_smile:

  • In comparison to, say, the Republic of Congo, or other less forgiving places.
    ** Specifically referring to the USA in this instance, with explicit acknowledgement to those of other nations within the continent that the word is generally, but commonly, misused.
2

Greed; religious fanaticism; war; ignorance.

It should turn itself in a more tolerant, less greedy, less ignorant, less religious, less warlike direction.

3

Your post is excellent. I feel much the same way you do.

My thoughts about America cover all of the above. It IS fragile. It CAN be easily broken. It IS robust. It is both an idea and a physical reality.

I’m not an “America – love it or leave it” American. I’m thoroughly embarrassed and saddened by the direction our nation has gone. I think the only way to look out for ourselves is to form alliances and build coalitions. We ARE part of the larger community…but we need to get back on track. We lack the guidance and inspiration (and respect for our heritage) that is essential for the individual growth that has been the cornerstone of our greatness. I believe that our new President can provide that guidance and inspiration. He has the ability to encourage the best in us. I think we can become the nation I believe we should be, but it will be because we’re inspired to do our individual best, and collectively we will rise above whatever the fuck it is we are today and become a force for good once again.

4

So, the United States reflects humanity, rather than some abstract ideal that has never existed and never will.

Seems reasonable.

5

#1. An ideal that has been irretrievably lost. America was to be the place that placed us all as equals, able to rise and fall by the merits of our own talents and willingness to work. Now we are nothing more than a sprawling pot of greed and consumer culture.

#2. We have one the most powerful economies on the planet, as well as significant military presence. We SHOULD be setting the example for others, engaging in as much diplomacy as possible, preventing conflicts with words and upholding our ideals by transforming our society to reflect them. We should be engaging in reforms that will show by the power of our example how successful our model can be; not just monetarily, but by the respect that we garner for continuously striving to improve both ourselves and the global community. We need to turn our eye inward, making certain that our children are well-educated, thoughtful, verbose, and generous in nature. There was a time that Americans were viewed as all those things, and we really WERE a bastion of freedom and enlightenment. We can be that again if we try.

6

The more I’m away, the more I realize how much I like America. We are practical and straight forward people. But we are also dreamers. And despite all evidence to the contrary, we are very excellent critical thinkers. Americans have some great qualities- ones that I sorely miss sometimes.

Anyway, I only have an answer to number one.

  1. A place where people from everywhere come by their own will (well, mostly) to build a life free of whatever was holding them down where they came from.
7

Ideally to me, America represents entrepreneurship, risk taking, and the triumphs (and failures) of the individual. It’s the idea that rights are accrued by birth, and not proscribed by government. It’s the notion that Der Trihs is protected from prosecution even as he condemns that which protects him.

That, it seems to me, is more a question about our government than about our nation. I think the role of government should be nothing more nor less than guaranteeing the rights of its citizens. And I think the citizens should be free to conduct trade and diplomacy in whatever way they see fit, so long as their dealings are peaceful and honest.

8

America. A nation based on great ideals, but one which has often fallen short of its loftiest goals. A promise of equality that inches slowly toward inclusion of all, but still has many citizens left by the wayside. A society that is based primarily on merit, but often fails to give opportunity to all equally.

A land that is legally based on religious freedom and tolerance, but in practical application often falls into the clutches of particular religious groups who proclaim it a “Christian” nation (especially of my particular religion)

A land of sometimes insensitivity to its shortcomings, but able to self reflect and self correct.
Prone to swings of international and internal policies, but with social and political brakes that temper the worst of these variations.

A land of enormous power that hasn’t always been used well or wisely, and yet we are sometimes the ones who need to apply that power.

Young, energetic, brash, generous, and an example of what may be possible.

Imperfect, yet looking for perfection. Human, with all of the glories and faults that that implies.

9

Something I’d like to add — especially given that here at the SDMB it might be stating the blatantly obvious — is that America elected Barack Hussein Obama to be its leader and representative to the world, an event packed to the gills with meaning and implication. America flirted briefly with vengeance and security over justice and liberty, but true to form came to its senses.

10

No; he won because of bad economic times, and because he’s good at politics and campaigning; not because of any moral enlightenment. And we ALREADY indulged in “vengeance and security over justice and liberty”, not to mention killing and torturing random people. We didn’t “flirt” with anything. And electing him does not erase the stain of electing Bush. Or Reagan, for that matter.

11

Have you tried self-flagellation?

12

The American Dream is getting exactly what you want, even if it’s burgers and fries at White Castle.

13

I covered part 2 above, so here is Part 2 These are not only the things I think we should do, but are also the direction that America should and will take.

What direction for America? Hopefully we will change the course of our nation. Just before we invaded Iraq, I wrote to Senator McCain expressing the opinion that the upcoming invasion was not in the spirit of the America that I believe in; his answer back was that I didn’t know enough to decide such a thing. In the long run, I still believe that we were wrong, and shouldn’t invade other nations unless attacked first.

So I believe that America should hold its power carefully, and apply it in accordance with our best ethics. We need to help police the world (Somali pirates as an example). We need to lead the world in certain technologies like energy source utilization. We will need to rebuild our infrastructure, and our economic machine is in bad need of overhauling.

We need to encourage international trade, and make sure that each country is able to play to its own natural comparative advantages rather than being propped up by the government in order to compete unfairly with other nations.

We need to encourage freedom and enlightenment while allowing for other nation’s traditions. We need to become a bit quieter, and more helpful and more cooperative in our dealings around the world.

We will be slowly developing our own version of universal health care, and will come to consider good health a right just as much as education is now.

In short, I think we will become a more moderate and helpful nation, both internally and externally.

I hope I’m right.

14

“How is it possible for one nation to be simultaneously so Forward and Backwards at the same time?”

The victory of the plutocrat - a robber baron’s dream come true.

No, the rot is pretty entrenched.

Not as long as they have the ass-backwards electoral system and outdated Constitution they currently do, no. They need a reboot - a new Constitutional Convention or summat.

But of course. They are our Imperial Masters, extending their will worldwide, by force of arms and cultural infiltration. The second, I like well enough - American culture’s given birth to much that is good. But the first? They didn’t uses to be quite as … vulgar in their use of it. Maybe I admire subtlety more than brute force.

It should be looking at the EU and saying “that is where we should be headed.”

It should lead, like it claims to.

The latter.

There is no clear middle path in those two choices. The first way is doomed to make the country more insular and eventually less relevant. Much better to go with the second road. Sure, it’ll be harder, but I’ve always heard America doesn’t shy away from hard work.

15

Thank you so much for a very thoughtful question that gives us Americans the opportunity to express ourselves. I actually do care a great deal about how the rest of the world views us; the sad way we have become in some senses a rogue nation under the current administration embarrasses me greatly and is the single most important thing I want to see repaired.

What I think of first when I think of the USA is: We are the grand experiment that happened when rich 18th century Eurpoean political philosophy met with an immense land that was not populated by humans in the European sense of the day. More specifically we are the grand experiment in governing by representation of the people.

The Soviet Union had, I always thought, a very nice Constitution document. They did not consistently uphold it, though, and consequently did not have a very nice political structure. The United States was seemingly at a sort of crossroads very early on, at the time of the Alien and Sedition acts, and we seem to have veered back onto the high road and done a fair job of staying there since. But it is always a struggle. Most recently, the Supreme Court decision in Bush v. Gore appears to be a defeat for the Constitution, but the current power transition appears to be a newer win. overall, then, our investment in our own Constitution is one of our greatest strengths, to the extent that we are successful at it.

It is kind of you not to say much about our original sin, by which I am assuming you mean enfranchising the keeping of slaves. It is hard to consider the United States without thinking about it. We also expanded into a land that our forefathers considered unoccupied and available only in the sense that they considered the many people occupying it to not be human. Those many people, of course, did not agree with this then and their descendents do not agree with it today. Most of us Americans will celebrate Thanksgiving on this coming Thursday, but many of us will be celebrating a Day of Mourning instead (or perhaps in addition). We also originally did not get votes from women, or from men who did not own real estate. So our idea of representation did not include most of our people. Even today, I think the idea of democracy legitimizing government because the people are governed by their own consent has a glaring flaw: obviously, uninformed consent is not real consent, and when our government hides things from us, our votes therefore do not confer legitimacy to our government in any contexts sensitive to the things that are hidden.

I feel unreasonable pride in my country, as if I can take some credit for things that other people did, even before I was born. A few countries are trying to reach the Moon, now - it is amazing that we walked on it nearly 40 years ago, and (in what everybody will agree is true American fashion) brought cars with us and drove around in them. And, of course, left them lying there.

I also feel what may be unreasonable shame for many of the things we have done. I never kept slaves or stole anybody’s land, but I enjoy benefits conferred by my ancestors and predecessors, and have little idea how this can ever be made right. Even if somebody tore my family apart, took our home from us, enslaved us, and killed us before each other’s weeping eyes, that still would not be a fair exchange, because we struck first. I am on the lookout for things to do that can help lessen the unfairness, but worry about my not being willing to go all the way in fixing it, even if I could know what that was.

And, finally, are we open or closed to people born outside our borders? With uneasiness I want to see some protection of our borders, because I think too many people trying to enter the US and bring their customs and traditions and cultures with them can only tend to make the US more like the places they are trying to get away from. Yet, at the same time, we all transplanted here somehow or descend from people who did (even if it was tens of thousands of years ago). So I am not sure how to help the things that are best about the United States to stay the way they are. But, of course, the idea that somebody can draw a line in the sand and tell people on the other side of it that they are not entitled to the same things that the people on this side are - this idea seems too bizarre to give it a second thought. Fairness dictates that Nationalism is an evil, a wrong, like various other demographic victimizations are. This is on the frontier of ethical development, I think.

16

>Is it fragile, something you can only whisper…

It certainly must be breakable.
>Or is it completely robust…

It has its strengths, and has made it this far, with some things getting better and some getting worse. It surely must be a great deal better now, if we remember how many demographic groups could not vote, and remember some were even enslaved. I think it will still mostly be the same United States in another 50 or 100 years, but that this is by no means guaranteed, and I wish it were more reliably so.

>Is it something more than an idea, a physical reality…

Yes. I think Mark Twain’s “A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court” is the perfect characterization of the practical instantiation of an American spirit. This is a mixed blessing, but I certainly enjoy it more than I regret it.

17

>No; he won because of bad economic times, and because he’s good at politics and campaigning; not because of any moral enlightenment.

He won for sixty million reasons. There has been some economics, some politics, some enlightement, and much else. I found the enlightenment part persuasive and was a strong supporter and, for my purse, a strong donor, partly on that basis, and certainly before the economic downturn. I think there is a tendency in political analysis to take some voting blocks for granted and then ascribe undeserved significance to other blocks, only because those blocks were of a size comparable to the margin of victory. I have to suspect Der Trihs to be thinking in this way, concluding that a shift of a few percent when the economy imploded, taken with a victory of a few percent, means that he would not have won if the economy didn’t implode (which may be true), and therefore means he won because of the economy (which is only true if there are only two possible versions of the election, and in the other version the economy looked good and everything else was the same). So, Der Trihs, of course I can’t read your mind - would you say more about your statement and how you got there, and straighten me out?
>And electing him does not erase the stain of electing Bush. Or Reagan, for that matter.

That’s right. None of these erases any of the others. I am sure Obama’s election is a good thing and a good sign, but that it does not mean any particular problem is completely gone now.

18

I’m saying that morality had no significant component in Obama’s election. That the vast majority of Americans are indifferent or in favor of such things as torture, civil rights violations and wars of conquest. I’m saying that Obama was just good enough, and the economy was bad enough that he won; that most people haven’t rejected the evil we have done, and are either indifferent or actively in support of it.

19

If you can afford it.

20

It’s ALL perspective. What does the idea mean to me? Freedom, freedom, freedom.