Gfactor: Please explain why you didn't issue a warning

[Idle_Thoughts]

I think either way, the mods/admins are damned if they do and dammed if they don’t.

If they don’t do anything, then they’re not taking seriously or warning or banning a person who made a vicious threat.

If they do take action and warn or ban said poster, then they come under fire for warning or banning a person based on something said in PMs (and you know there would be people arguing for the point that the PM shouldn’t have been posted, etc).
Either way, they can’t win and there will always be people unhappy with the/any decision.

If the poster in question deserves to be warned or banned and is that extremeist, I’m sure it will crop up somewhere else, in time, when it’ll be much more clear.

[mhendo]

I think this has been dealt with pretty well in this thread.

As a more general observation, however, i think that incidents like this can also be subject to a certain amount of non-moderator moderation, if you know what i mean.

Before today, i had noticed bri1600bv on one or two occasions, but had never really had an opinion about him one way or the other. Now, whenever i see his name in a thread, i’ll remember that he’s the guy who likes to make threats of violence in PMs. And i’ll treat his contributions to the board with a level of respect that reflects this fact.

In a community, you don’t need formal or legal sanctions to make clear that a person’s behavior is unacceptable.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

That was pretty much what I was going for.

[Clark_K]

@mhendo

I think this has been dealt with pretty well in this thread.

As a more general observation, however, i think that incidents like this can also be subject to a certain amount of non-moderator moderation, if you know what i mean.

Before today, i had noticed bri1600bv on one or two occasions, but had never really had an opinion about him one way or the other. Now, whenever i see his name in a thread, i’ll remember that he’s the guy who likes to make threats of violence in PMs. And i’ll treat his contributions to the board with a level of respect that reflects this fact.

In a community, you don’t need formal or legal sanctions to make clear that a person’s behavior is unacceptable.

Hear, hear! When it comes to moderating, I’m of the less-is-more school. Let the members respond to jerks and trolls on their own. Save the banstick and warnings unless they’re absolutely required.

[Muffin]

@Lynn_Bodoni

My suggestion is that if someone gets an abusive PM, to write the sender back once, saying that all future PMs from that person will be deleted unread. And then do it. Please don’t post them on the boards.

Wow. Just wow.

@Gfactor

Actually, no. Please forward the PM to a moderator and state your complaint. We *will *do something about it. Moreover, the rules do not currently prohibit posting PM content, so you are free to do that, as long as you don’t violate another rule in the process.

More like it.

[Liberal]

Yeah, but a heart doesn’t trump a spade.

[Boyo_Jim]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

…However, since, AFAIK, this is not a pattern of behavior for the poster in question, I don’t see what the big deal is.

You have no idea if this is a pattern, as a pattern would not be visible because the threats would be through PMs. For all you know, bri1600bv may have issued dozens of threats through PMs.

I too reported the post, and I got a personal emailed reply that said the original PM would be looked at to verify what was actually said. Unfortunately I didn’t keep that email; it was from someone whose name wasn’t familiar to me. But I find it impossible to believe that PMs cannot be read by moderators, or at least administrators.

[Gfactor]

@Boyo_Jim

I too reported the post, and I got a personal emailed reply that said the original PM would be looked at to verify what was actually said. Unfortunately I didn’t keep that email; it was from someone whose name wasn’t familiar to me. But I find it impossible to believe that PMs cannot be read by moderators, or at least administrators.

I’ve got a copy of what I sent you. I can post it if you like. Or not.

[Boyo_Jim]

@Gfactor

I’ve got a copy of what I sent you. I can post it if you like. Or not.

Feel free to do with it as you will. I do recall you said you were requesting a copy of the PM from someone, I don’t recall who, as my initial report of the post contemplated the possibility that the PM was mis-quoted. I also said that if it was correctly quoted, then bri1600bv should be banned or very sternly warned.

[Gfactor]

@Boyo_Jim

Feel free to do with it as you will.

Thanks.

I do recall you said you were requesting a copy of the PM from someone, I don’t recall who, as my initial report of the post contemplated the possibility that the PM was mis-quoted. I also said that if it was correctly quoted, then bri1600bv should be banned or very sternly warned.

That’s a good summary. I said I was asking RNATB (the recipient) to send me what he got. AFAIK, there really is no way *within vbulletin *to access user PMs. That said, PMs are stored in a database, so it would be *possible *to access them in some way. We’ve never done that, and don’t plan to start.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

I could just have given him my password, but since I deleted all my PMs yesterday it’s academic now.

[Gfactor]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

I could just have given him my password,

Or you could have invited me over.

[crypto]

Wow.

This place is in bizarro territory.

I don’t have any idea who **bri **is, or what that thread was about. I just read the linked post to the PM.

Based on that, I don’t get why an official warning wasn’t issued immediately. When **Really Not All That Bright **posted it, it was no longer a PM. It was now out there for public consumption. It doesn’t matter if **RNATB **wanted something to happen to **Bri **or not. The call should have come from staff, and after confirming that this indeed was a PM from **Bri **to **RNATB **, action should have been swift. An official warning would have been the *minimum *this should have received.

It fascinates me to no end how you can receive an official warning for mentioning your ignore list in the wrong forum, but threatening to “gut” someone using The Straight Dope servers and vBulletin software as a conduit doesn’t. The hyper-sensitivity of legal ramifications (real or imagined) from TPTB should have been all over this.

The inconsistency in moderation on this board is one of the biggest reasons that people get frustrated. Reading Lynn’s response in this thread makes the mind boggle.

Gfactor, I read your explanation, and the decision is your call. But I think you dialed the wrong number in this instance.

@Fenris

So…wait. If someone get an actual, physical threat*, your Mod advice is “ignore it and hope it goes away”? Don’t out the person, don’t share the threat with anyone to let them know you’ve been threatened., don’t document it (and the mods don’t want to hear it anyway)…just close your eyes, lay back and pretend like it isn’t happening…?

But someone says “Cunt” to the wrong person and the the entire board has to be completely changed to protect their delicate, flower-like sensibilities?

Those are some very, VERY badly fucked up priorities. Threats are not and have never been acceptable here. Zenster was banned for a purely hypothetical threat** I don’t care about this specific situation as the two parties seem to have resolved it, but the notion that the mods can’t be arsed to investigate claims of actual, real threats–they won’t even contact the alleged threaten-er and check into it? That the advice is “ignore it and hope it goes away”? Sick.

And unless those were direct Mod Orders, I encourage everyone to say “Fuck that shit!” and blatently disregard that deranged series of suggestions–if you’re offered a threat in a PM, out the bastard. Make a big stink. Make it clear that it’s NOT ok. That you won’t ignore it. That you’re not going to just hide and hope that it goes away.

Of course, if those ARE direct mod orders (delete it, contact the poster and say “You were naughty. I’m going to stick my fingers in my ears and just delete anything else you send” and not tell anyone), then of course we have to bend over and grease up as we follow them obediently.

I would not and have not ever encouraged people to break the rules. I just don’t know if that was new, fucking psychotic official board policy or a mod-as-poster’s totally deranged advice.

*Of the “I will hunt you down and gut you like a trout” variety, not the “I hate you and I hope a house falls on your sister” type.

**Something along the lines of “You think it’s fucking funny to park in front of a fire hydrant (to a troll who was bragging about how great fire hydrants were because there was always a parking space nearby)? IF I was ever in your town and IF there was a fire and IF your car was in front of a hydrant needed to put it out and IF I had a baseball bat, I’d take it to your car first, and then to you.”. Instaban.

What **Fenris **said.

[Muffin]

Sometimes it’s just a matter of going at it from another direction.

@Gfactor

Ok. Look. I gave you the benefit of the doubt on the PM issue, and I told you not to make threats. These posts would be edgy bu themselves, but combined with the PM, they get you at least a warning. There may be more. I’ll need to discuss it with the other moderators.

Gfactor

[crypto]

@Muffin

Sometimes it’s just a matter of going at it from another direction.

I don’t get it. What direction are you referring to?

[Muffin]

Repeated on board posts v. single off board pm.

[crypto]

@Muffin

Repeated on board posts v. single off board pm.

I read the thread before I posted. I disagree.

The PM became on-board when it was posted for all to see.

[Muffin]

Yes, provided that the pm was not forged. The posts remove any doubt. There’s also the issue of whether the pm was simply a correctable one-time error of judgment, where again the posts remove any doubt.

[crypto]

@Muffin

Yes, provided that the pm was not forged. The posts remove any doubt. There’s also the issue of whether the pm was simply a correctable one-time error of judgment, where again the posts remove any doubt.

I have no idea what you are trying to say. A correctible one-time error in judgement? Since when does that matter on this board?

The pm was forged? First of all, if that was the case, then RNATB would be in a world of shit for posting it. Secondly, whether or not it has been acknowledged by TPTB, a PM is accessible by someone with root access (I assume a system admin would be able to get to it). The PM also is routed through the servers owned by Creative Loafing, so a copy is made, and is sitting on a server until someone reads it. At least two copies exist, in fact. One in the senders out box, and the other in the recipients inbox. This would be checked to verify the authenticity of the PM that was posted.

Your defense of Gfactor’s decision is admirable, but it doesn’t wash.

How about looking at it this way… let’s say RNATB gets the PM, thinks it is a joke, and shows it around to family, friends and neighbors. Then, tragically, RNATB turns up gutted on the street. During the investigation, it comes out that RNATB received a threat on this message board. The investigation also discovers this thread, where an administrator of this board gives the sage advice of ignoring it, in the hopes that it will go away. The official board response was given by Gfactor, who issued a mod warning only (no real big deal. Don’t do it again). I would guess that at the bear minimum, Creative Loafing would be in some interesting legal territory. If you think that RNATB would be impossible to identify, you are being naive. A motivated person could find a way.

Lynn writes:

The staff can’t read private messages that aren’t addressed to us. I think that we could, possibly, write a hack that would enable us to do so, however, we haven’t done this, and I don’t see us doing this in the near future. Since anyone can modify the text in a PM, then forwarding a PM really doesn’t prove anything.

This doesn’t pass the smell test. If Lynn is saying that anyone can change the text in a PM, why on earth was RNATB permitted to post it? I would assume that posting something so vile, attributing it to another poster, and creating it out of whole cloth would get RNATB banned. So, they would have had to verify it. If they didn’t, they made a grave error in judgement and anyone who has an axe to grind against any other poster out here could post a “PM” in a similar fashion. Since RNATB wasn’t banned, I think we can assume that someone verified the PM was accurate. (If I’m wrong, can someone explain to me why it wasn’t verified and if it was forged why RNATB wasn’t banned?)

My suggestion is that if someone gets an abusive PM, to write the sender back once, saying that all future PMs from that person will be deleted unread. And then do it. Please don’t post them on the boards.

This is the board’s official policy? Good luck with that. If it’s only a “suggestion”, it’s an incredibly bad one.

[Covered_In_Bees]

bri has been suspended now and Gfactor has partially cited the private message as something that contributed to it, so can we drop this now? Please?