Ghosts and the BIble

Great Debates
1

Luke 24
Jesus Appears to the Disciples

36While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
37They were startled and frightened, **thinking they saw a ghost. **38He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
40When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43and he took it and ate it in their presence.

What is meant by ghost in this passage?

GHOST
gost (nephesh; pneuma) : “Ghost,” the middle-English word for “breath,” “spirit,” appears in the King James Version as the translation of nephesh (“breath,” “the breath of life,” animal soul or spirit, the vital principle, hence, “life”), in two places of the Old Testament, namely, Job 11:20, “the giving up of the ghost” (so the Revised Version (British and American)), and Jer 15:9, “She hath given up the ghost”; gawa`, "to gasp out, “expire” (die), is also several times so translated (Ge 25:8,17; 35:29; 49:33; Job 3:11; 10:18; 13:19; 14:10; La 1:19).

In the New Testament “to give up the ghost” is the translation of ekpneo, “to breathe out” (Mr 15:37,39; Lu 23:46; so the Revised Version (British and American)); of ekpsucho, “to breathe out,” “expire” (Ac 5:5,10; 12:23); in Mt 27:50, apheken to pneuma, and in Joh 19:30, paredoken to pneuma, are rendered respectively, “yielded” and “gave up the ghost,” the Revised Version (British and American) “yielded up his spirit,” “gave up his spirit.”

Are the disciples talking about ghosts like we do today?
Did people back then regularly see ghosts?
Jesus says ghosts do not have flesh and bone. Does that mean they exist?
If so, are ghosts dead people or demons?

2

I’m not sure that people in the early seventeeth century made a categorical distinction beweeen a ghost and a spirit. Note that the third Person of the Trinity was routinely referred to and addressed as “the Holy Ghost” up until just a couple of decades ago.

That said, I think that the NIV translation that uses “ghost” is probably correct in that it conveys the feeling of the apostles having “seen a ghost” when Jesus appears.

3

The Bible never really discusses ghosts as we think of them in any detail, just passing mentions that let us know the concept did exist then. Darn irritating for we Christians who are into paranormal stuff!

4

Didn’t King Saul use a witch to raise the ghost of Samuel?

5

Yes, it did.

6

1 Samuel 28:7-20

7

There are differing opinions as to whether or not the ghost of Samuel was actually Samuel, or a demon that happened to look like Samuel.

I don’t have a concrete opinion but since Saul had already asked God for an answer and didn’t get one, I tend to lean towards believing that whatever the witch saw was a demon. I really can’t see God using a witch to communicate with someone when He can just answer the question Himself, especially when witchcraft was a very big no-no.

However, the apparition was dead on accurate as to what was going to happen to Saul. However, demons do know the future sometimes. (This is why psychics sometimes get it right, IMHO. If the devil never provided accurate answers or predictions every now and then, it’d be kind of hard for them to convince people to look to the occult for answers instead of God. That’s why the Bible tells us to test the spirits.)

Another thing I wonder about: the spirit says “tomorrow you and your sons will be with me.” The real Samuel was undoubtedly with the Lord. Saul was wicked till the very end, though, so why would he end up in the same place Samuel did? It makes sense to me that a demon would tell him what would really happen (perhaps to keep the witch herself believing in her own powers?), but then lie to Saul about where he would end up in the hereafter. The devil’s best game is taking truth and mixing it with lies. If one keeps listening to him, the truth and his lies become harder and harder to differentiate.

Just MHO. I haven’t studied this enough to be able to make a solid declaration, but I’m skeptical that the witch and Saul were really talking to Samuel.

8

It seems to me that the ghost of Samuel was too angry (“Why have you disturbed me?”) and unaccomidating to be a demon. You’d think an agent of darkness would have been friendlier and more helpful (in teh short term, at least). He was the real deal, IMHO.

Btw, the reason that psychics are sometimes right is because, like all humans, they can make predictions on the future based on deductive reasoning, and they sometimes guess right. No demons are necessary.

9

It seems to me that the ghost of Samuel was too angry (“Why have you disturbed me?”) and unaccomidating to be a demon.

Demons are normally nice, happy and accomodating, then?

As far as why psychics are correct sometimes, you’re right. Deductive reasoning. However the Bible mentions a slave psychic who communicated with demons, and those who owned her made a lot of money off of her because she was right a lot of the time.

10

I lean to thinking that was Samuel’s spirit. The witch was freaked out, probably because she was expecting her familiar spirit, and this one she got was not familiar at all. I think God in a rare instance did allow her to raise a real human spirit to teach her & Samuel a harsh lesson. Note that Torah forbids contacting spirits of the dead, it doesn’t say those spirits aren’t able to be contacted.

As to Samuel’s words “tomorrow you shall be with me”, Saul was to join him in Sheol, which seemed to be a state of semi-consciousness perhaps with rare moments of clarity. One’s faith & conduct in life determined whether that state was restful or fitful (Luke 16- Rich Man & Lazarus story).

11

The Old Testament says SHEOL not HELL.

SHEOL means “dwelling place of spirits” or “abode of the dead.”

In the Gospels Jesus cast out some “spirits” from a posessed man into some swine and they killed the swine to escpe the animal bodies.

Suppose soul, spirit and ghost are just different names for the same thing, the “real you” that survives the death of the body. What if the system actually works on reincarnation and HELL is Roman paganism.

see:

OLD SOULS by Tom Shroder

Dal Timgar

12

Ghosts in New Testament times are a tricky subject, and one handled by the second century apologists more than once. Greek myths tell of shades in Hades that were wholly corporeal–if you sat next to one, you would not know it was not human according to later mythology. They ate, they drank, they danced, and so on. Even among Christians, Eusibius writes that tomb veneration, such as leaving food and drink for the dead, became so common that the bodies of martyrs were thrown into the sea.

The point of the resurrection passage cited is to combat claims that Jesus rose only spiritually, by evidencing his corporeal existence. It didn’t work until centuries later–all of the attributes ascribed to Jesus–that he ate, that he had his wounds, that he could be touched–could also be attributed to ghosts in Graeco-Roman folklore. The notion of rising physically was quite repugnant to the ancient world at large–in the entirety of Greek myth, but one man is raised physically from the dead. Zeus was so disgusted by this that he struck him dead again. This resistance to the concept is what spawned these apologetics in the resurrection narratives.

For an excellent handling of the ancient conceptions of ghosts and resurrections, see G J Riley Resurrection Reconsidered. (His handling of these issues is excellent, his handling of Thomas and John not so much–food for thought, but wrong. Pagels’ recent book Beyond Belief was better on that front, but a disappointing book all around).

Regards.

13

Ghost in English is related to the German “geist” – spirit, which itself carries the connotation of “breath.”

Nephesh is Hebrew means something like “life force”; the best translation would probably be “anima”.

The Hebrew for soul meaning the presence of God dwelling in a human being is “neshama.”

Another Hebrew word for soul/spirit is “ru’ach”, which also means “wind” in Hebrew. Ru’ach Elohim – the spirit of God – is a common locution.

By the way, the Hebrew used in the Samuel/Saul story, in vs. 13, is “elohim”, which is not translated well in the cite used as “spirit.” This word usually means “God” but can also mean “mighty man” or “person in authority” (see Ex 7:1 – the Hebrew says “r’eh n’tatikha elohim l’pharo’ " – see I a have you placed as an “elohim” to Pharaoh” )

One can certainly infer that the witch of Ein Dor raised up the spirit of Samuel; she was a necromaner (ba’alat ov). The word “spirit” or “ghost” is not used in this narrative, however.