Girl Scouts: "Girls don't owe you a hug"

In My Humble Opinion
41

I certainly understand and agree with the intent of the message - that girls should have control over their bodies and should not feel obligated to be physically affectionate if they don’t want to - but I think the message itself is an extreme overreaction.

Hugging family members in greeting or in thanks at family gatherings is perfectly normal and healthy, and encouraging children to participate is a part of raising a normal, well-adjusted child. Being asked by parents to hug a relative doesn’t mean that a girl has lost “control” of her body, any more so than she does when her parents force her to wash the dishes.

What I find disagreeable here is the implication that anything to do with physical contact, touching, or the body is inherently sexual and suspect, and must be done with the utmost caution because it’s a slippery slope down to sexual assault and incest.

Kids don’t have a lot of autonomy. Being so cautious and tentative about physical contact and making it seem like something so special and valuable is sending the wrong message entirely and probably more likely to lead to problems down the road.

If you’re teaching girls that they don’t have to hug Uncle Jeff at Thanksgiving if they don’t want to, because “their body is theirs”, then the implication is that if they do hug Uncle Jeff, they’re “giving their body” to Uncle Jeff. Kind of gross.

42

This is creepy. A hug involves pressing my breasts against your body. It lets you put your hands near my ass. But to you that’s “not so different than a handshake.” The type of hug I imagine you are describing is the type of situation women are warned over and over again not to encourage. That “I’ll just lean in for a casual hug” means that I’m close enough to someone for them to sexually assault me. It makes it easy for you to pull me closer than I’m comfortable - and if I pull back, I’m a bitch who doesn’t want a simple hug. When we talk about women protecting themselves from sexual assault - because that’s apparently my job, not a guys - don’t drink to excess, don’t be alone with a guy you don’t trust, don’t wear a short skirt, don’t put yourself in a situation where a guy can grab your ass by standing against the wall on the elevator or positioning yourself on the subway to avoid someone “handsy.” But putting myself in the situation of hugging someone is no big deal?

I don’t know the last time someone stuck out their hand for a hand shake in business towards me. People are really learning “you don’t touch strangers” There isn’t any reason, other than habit, to shake hands, so why risk one of the many reasons brought up by Broomstick why offering your hand might make someone uncomfortable.

43

You are assuming that families are normal and healthy, but many girls had an Uncle Jeff who was sort of creepy. Its not uncommon at all to have one of those uncles that you felt sexualized you at a fairly young age. Its not uncommon to have that uncle or step parent touch you inappropriately. It isn’t THAT uncommon to get RAPED by that uncle.

We want girls to be able to trust their instincts so they stay safe. And then tell them they need to go hug an uncle who somehow always finds a way to press their leg against theirs under the table.

44

If you’re so uncomfortable around your own family that you’re worried a hug is an invitation for a family member to sexually assault you or your children, I’m genuinely sorry to hear that. But don’t project your own problems onto my family or imply (as the Girl Scouts are) that I’m being a bad parent by not assuming the worst of my own family members.

I am a engineer at a small, progressive tech company in a very progressive area of the country, and everyone of every gender and persuasion exchanges handshakes before a business meeting.

45

I see boxers hitting each other all the time, too, but it doesn’t mean I get to punch anybody I like.

46

And you’re assuming that my family is not. That’s what’s offensive about this attitude.

Because some families have this problem, the Girl Scouts are rather self-righteously suggesting that all families (including my family) should change their holiday traditions and customs and that we’re somehow harming our girls if we don’t. This is the sort of lowest-common-denominator bullshit that drives me and lots of conservatives nuts.

In general, I don’t like to be told that I have to act a certain way because statistically I (or someone in my family) have a 10% chance of being a creep and the rules are not willing to concede that I’m not.

47

What “holiday tradition and custom” are they telling you to change? No one is saying that you can’t hug family members. All anyone is saying is that if a girl is resistant, you don’t push or shame her into accepting a hug.

Are you really defending forcing/coercing/ordering kids to hug relatives even when they express clear distaste?

48

Also, a man doesn’t have to be sexually predatory for a girl to find she’s uncomfortable hugging him. Puberty, especially, can be a confusing time. You’re suddenly hyper-aware of your changing body. Things that used to feel comforting–like being enveloped–can now feel suffocating and make you cringe. Telling a girl she has to suck up that cringe-y feeling and make sure she hides it for the sake of politeness/family harmony is a really bad message. Girl Scouts specifically said that it’s not okay for girls to be rude, and suggested that air kisses, high-fives, and smiles could also be used to show affection. I’d add to that that words are a really effective way to show affection: “Love you, Uncle Bob. Thanks for hosting!”.

If a hug isn’t that big of deal, why is it such a big deal for a girl to opt out of one, and chose another way to show familial affection?

49

Oh, boohoo.

The Girl Scouts aren’t even talking about sexualized contact. It’s about girls (and should be about boys, too) determining what happens with their own bodies. If they don’t want to hug, they shouldn’t be forced. Not because Uncle Jerry or even Aunt Jane might be some kind of perv, but because children have the right to control with whom they have physical contact for whatever reason. Creep factor, shyness, introversion, whatever. THEIR choice, not anyone else’s. Exceptions made for polite, brief handshakes maybe, and certain elderly relatives.

50

A kid shouldn’t be forced to hug or kiss or shake hands anyone. But I still think kids should be encouraged to do so. Hearing “Go give Grandpa a hug” isn’t going to traumatize the majority of children. I think following basic social customs should be encouraged.

If I had a kid and it was clear they didn’t want to hug a particular person–especially a person they’ve had prolonged contact with before–I’d take that as a major red flag and I’d want to find out what was going on. But if the kid tells me they don’t want to hug Uncle John because he smells like cigars and mothballs, I wouldn’t respect that decision and I’d let them know, especially if it was obvious that Uncle John’s feelings were hurt by the cold shoulder.

Sometimes we don’t feel like someone deserves a “please” and a “thank you”, but we say the words anyway when we don’t want to cause offense. I would encourage a kid to follow these customs so that they understand that sometimes being polite is easier than having your way but dealing with the fall-out afterwards. I don’t think hugging is on the same level as uttering a couple of words, but I think kids should still be encouraged to hug people as appropriate, even when they aren’t 100% in the “hugging” mood. I think there is a way to do this while also being on alert for signs that a kid who is uncomfortable around a specific person for potentially serious reasons.

I say all of this as someone who isn’t particularly touchy-feely. But I shudder to think how even more anti-touchy feely I would be if my parents hadn’t asked me to pull myself away from the TV or toys or whatever and allowed myself to be hugged on by family members who hadn’t seen me in a month of Sundays.

51

Also, no biting their tongues or unzipping their pants to check out their genitals. (I remember this from the Elian Gonzalez case–that is what his grandmother did when reunited with him.)

52

This.

And this.

Not getting why there should be a ‘maybe’ about handshakes, though. They’re simple politeness.

53

Isn’t is amazing how there are so many men who are convinced that if they can’t demand and impose a hug they won’t get any?

If they were the kind of person people wanted to hug then they would get hugs.

54

I don’t think all men are like that, not even most from what I’ve seen. Are we going to say something similar about women? I went on a first date once and she demanded a hug when I first met her. I’m not used to that and don’t really like hugging people I don’t know. She talked about it for the rest of the date and how she thought there was something wrong with me.

My ex-wife used to insist I give hugs to her friends, some of whom I had only just meet. I told her after I didn’t like hugging women I didn’t know and she just told me to get over it.

I shouldn’t just be one group of people being told this, it should be everyone understanding not everyone wants to hug someone else.

55

Isn’t it amazing how statements about a sub-group are exaggerated to mean all of a group?

Good, because I didn’t say that.

NOWHERE did I say “all men”. That is your exaggeration. That is you not really hearing what I (and others) are saying.

I said “so many”. I did not say “all”. Really, go back and re-read my post, it’s right there.

Then she was out of line.

The boundaries of men’s bodies should be respect just as much as the boundaries of women’s bodies. Both men and women need to be equally free to say “no” as well as “yes”.

Then she was also out of line.

And it’s been said over and over in this thread that it doesn’t just apply to little girls or women, that boys and men should also be able to say “no”.

Why the insistence on reading things into statements that aren’t actually there?

56

Or perhaps you misunderstood what I said. I didn’t say YOU said it, but some people have. I was quoting you because SOME women expect to get hugs, even from people who outright say they are uncomfortable with it.

And yet I’ve been chastised multiple times for not wanting to give hugs to people I don’t know, or don’t know well. I’ve been told it’s rude to not hug people as that’s what you’re supposed to do. When I asked why it’s not rude to hug someone who didn’t want it I was told to just get over it.

I was actually agreeing with you, not reading into statements. I was just trying to say there are people, and in my experience it’s mostly women, who expect hugs and get upset if someone is uncomfortable with the idea.

57

I would assume that the people complaining are reading more into it than they should. They are basically reading into it the same way people read into an idea that’s in the Pit: “All men are potential rapists.” They read into it an implication that they or other men in their family must be child molesters for wanting a hug. Or, as above, they are reading into it that teaching kids to hug adults is a bad thing, because one of them might be a child molester.

Yes, I know. To us, it’s obvious that they aren’t saying anything like that. They are just saying that, if a kid doesn’t want to hug, don’t force the issue. Unfortunately, they focus more on the idea that the adult may be a pedophile, which I think is a bad way to play this. Because that doesn’t matter. All that matters is the kid isn’t comfortable. Even if this particular person is fine, it’s not a good lesson to teach that you should just do it anyways, even if it makes you feel uncomfortable.

There are times when this is a good lesson. I mean, it’s the way to avoid anxiety. But this is not one of those times. Sure, there is some nuance to the concept, but this is not the time for that, either. Kids need to learn it’s okay to say no to any showing of affection that makes them feel uncomfortable.

Yes, the potential for abuse is ultimately the issue, but that doesn’t mean that there’s anything wrong with the person the kid is refusing to hug. The issue is in teaching the kid to push past any discomfort. Sure, you may be fine, but what if they do encounter a child molester? Do you not see how they can take advantage of the situation?

And even if they encounter no child molesters, what does it teach them as adults? By and large, it is girls who are socialized to hug. I rarely encounter little boys who spontaneously hug me, unlike little girls. And how often have we heard the stories of women who were abused, and left wondering why they let it go as far as they did? How often have we wondered why they didn’t give a clear “no” and just leave?

Sure, being forced to hug isn’t the only reason. But it’s definitely part of it. You are socializing your kid to ignore that feeling of discomfort. You’re teaching them that it would be rude to refuse. When, in fact, they can both refuse and be polite and even show affection.

I admit, this isn’t an issue that really occurred to me before. And I’ve hugged lots of kids (and have a rule that they are the ones who initiate). But I totally get it. Granted, phrasing it as “[I’m] not entitled to a hug” seems overly confrontational, but the idea that kid should not be pressured into a hug or other physical affection they don’t want to give seems pretty sound to me.

It may hurt your feelings a bit. I remember it hurting my feelings a bit when a kid grew past that hugging stage. But I always just chalked it up to growing up. I remember how my peers became more important than most adults around my teenage years. I never even dreamed of forcing the issue.

So go ahead and tell your kids “Give Uncle Jim a hug.” But if they don’t want to, don’t force it. Heck, I’ve been “Uncle Jim” in that scenario, and the fake hug they give isn’t that great, anyways.

58

No, you are letting your personal experiences color your perception too far in the wrong direction. I was at my ex-SIL’s house for Thanksgiving yesterday and she gave me a firm hug and a kiss on the cheek (and vice versa) when I walked in and when I left. That is what we always do and she initiated it in full view of her husband and other family members. I still love her and both she and my ex-wife are half Italian. That is just what they do.

The new Americanized view of no physical contact without explicit consent is oppressive and overly paranoid to me. I would hide the body of a real child molester myself but most people aren’t like that. The vast majority of people like some physical contact and don’t want to feel like they are walking on eggshells all the time.

I agree that there is a whole lot more nuance to this conversation that is needed.

59

I find it creepy. I find it creepy that people feel that much physical contact is not a bigger deal than a handshake. Yes, its my personal experience coloring it. But that doesn’t keep me from finding it creepy. Nor does it keep me from finding it a double standard of “you are responsible for keeping yourself safe” and “you should engage in actions which might put you at risk.”

60

Yeah. How does that go? #NotAllWomen?

The thread title might be relevant here.