Then I stand corrected, I was basing it on my experience and not a deep knowledge of world Islam.
Where I got it from is that you explicitly objected to this newfangled idea that you need explicit consent to touch people, and implicitly said that needing consent from people before you touch them makes you feel like you’re walking on eggshells. I quoted your exact statement above. The situation you described in the second quote above is completely irrelevant to ‘where I got it from’, because it doesn’t describe a situation where there is a lack of consent, and doesn’t seem to have anyone walking on eggshells.
Why would you object to something that you already do and seem to think is reasonable to do as “oppressive”, and why would you feel like you’re walking on eggshells for people expecting you to do something you do anyway?
I’m not sure why you’re telling me something that AFAIR no one has disagreed with in this thread (and certainly I haven’t). And I’m also not sure why you think that expecting “both people [to be] in agreement” about physical touching “is oppressive and overly paranoid” and leads people “to feel like they are walking on eggshells all the time”, but that’s what your earlier quote seems to say. You literally objected to needing explicit consent, then keep talking about situations where you have explicit consent, which doesn’t make a lot of sense.
Incidentally, claiming that something is ‘cultural’ is not a magic get out of jail free card. Child genital mutilation, slapping your wife around, owning slaves, beating the gay out of people, and a host of other bad actions are or have been ‘cultural’. (And note that I’m not saying that hugging people is equivalent to those, I’m using them to show that the idea of “it’s cultural” is not a functional defense for bad behavior).
Just because you buy their girl scout cookies doesn’t mean you should get their personal cookies. I would never have thought that girls scouts should have been giving people hugs in the first place. Some people are huggy, I have never been comfortable with anyone hugging me.
That is like the least charitable possible reading of their statement. No one is saying you can’t teach very small children good-bye rituals–“say thank you” “go hug grandpa”. A much more reasonable interpretation is that once a girl is past that age–like, school-age–you say “Go say good-bye to grandpa” and let her take the lead on whether that’s a hug, a high-five, or a phrase. Scouts are not talking to parents of preschoolers. It’s an organization for fairly autonomous aged girls, not small children.
When I first posted this, I thought that the title may be a bit too aggressive. Some of the replies have convinced me that it is not. Oddly, some people really do need to be told that they are not owed hugs by anyone who doesn’t want to hug.
Times are (very, very slowly) changing. The days of girls being taught to “be nice” and “don’t cause a scene” when dealing with unwanted physical contact, are not as accepted as they once were.
It’s very hard for some men to deal with but, fortunately, many progressive men see women as equals who shouldn’t be pawed over. These men are our best allies and greatly needed and appreciated. Women deal with it every day and it just gets so tiresome. Teaching young girls that it’s OK to say “no”, even to adults, is a step in the right direction.
All of the people in the news being outted as harassers or predators is a really good thing. It’s bringing out into the open the fact that young girls and women have been taken advantage of for long enough and it just needs to stop. Let’s just get it all out in the open, acknowledge it, fix it, and move on. Hell even in the bible, if you rape someone, your punishment is you have to marry her because she’s damaged goods and no other man will take care of her now.
If you make the choice to be offended at women striving for equality and try to pretend that it’s about calling all men sexual predators, that’s your choice. And that’s what it is, a choice.
Fortunately for the rest of us (women and men) you’re in the minority.
Because for millenniums those who wish to abuse women will seek any means to legitimize their behavior. I have always considered myself lucky that in my culture men touching women who are not their wives or blood relatives is not allowed (i.e., if it occurs the man is considered to have made a serious insult that will frequently be answered with violence). It cuts down on most prevy family acquaintances trying to groom little girls for victimization.
Because it’s not simple politeness, if flesh is touching flesh. For some people any physical contact with someone of the opposite sex they are not married to is still an uncleanliness and a sin.
I always offer to shake hands with children who are told to hug me.
Exactly, because it is their person, their choice.
However, I will trade the elderly relative exemption for the handshakes, because that’s what handshakes are for.
I had an opposite experience a couple months back, saying goodbye to my brother’s wife’s son who was around 7 years old. Apparently my brother and him do an elbow bump and he was about to do that with me when my brother remembered that I hate elbow bumps because sometimes people push too hard and it hurts my bones. So I said “your choices are a handshake, fistbump, or a hug.” He chose the hug.
So they make their young daughter kiss her dead grandmother and years later she’s a shy retiring housewife part of the time and a sexpot single nightclubber part of the time. Then at last she sometimes becomes a sensible woman who doesn’t remember anything about the other two and is cured.
Joane Woodward got an Academy Award, the movie studio made a bazillion dollars, and Chris Sizemore got a whopping $7000 for the rights to her life story.
OK, the “kiss your dead grandma” bit was the theatrical way of portraying the trauma Ms. Sizemore experienced.
Yes, even handshakes. Children can be taught about handshakes and about how they can be polite and professional. However, if a child doesn’t want to shake someone’s hand, there could be a reason. I had an “uncle” (some distant cousin) who would shake my hand and hold it and look at me for MUCH too long. But it was just a handshake! I was very uncomfortable around him all the time as a result.
Even handshakes.
You could always offer them money, like my grandfather did. I loved my grandfather, but I never wanted to kiss him goodbye, because he had a really scratchy beard. So he started offering me a buck. Heh. (My mother made him stop though when I asked my OTHER grandfather for money after he kissed me goodbye)