That’s only the second most messed up story I’ve read about child-pimping.
Two almost identical cases from Australia involve a Thai mother sexually pimping out their 11/12 year old daughter at her “massage parlour” (link) (link)
:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
And I’m saying there’s no reason to doubt in such a situation. Even if the owners in this case deliberatly avoided to dig too deep, nobody can reasonnably be expected to envision that a strip joint would have hired a 12 yo. It would never have crossed my mind, and I’m pretty sure it would never have crossed anybody’s mind.
The centerfold of the last playboy issue might also depict a 12 yo., for all you know. Should you also avoid buying it in case you’d end up with child pornography?
Hmm…I had missed this, and the fact that the guy who had sex with her was her pimp. For some reason, I had assumed it was a random 17 yo employee of the strip parlor.
tl;dr just to find out…
Has anyone mentioned the “I’m not the only one” defense to (under-age)* Statutory rape?
ca 1960 (me b 1949 - in 1960 I was just getting into the whole “sex” thing) I heard that a Statutory Rape accusation could be disproved by the testimony of 5 other males who had also had sex with the “victim”**.
Any Truth to this, or another of those tales young folks love to hear and repeat?
**No, I do NOT consider MOST children having sex at 12 to be the guilty party. That does NOT mean I don’t recognize that a 12 year old can be both vicious and predatory. A young child seeking revenge may well be both.
If you have no problem believing a child can form intent to murder and be so tried, don’t tell me one can’t learn about what happens to a “boy” when you tell a grown-up that he touched you “down there”.
The Duke LaCrosse whore was not the only liar with a vagina.
Better burn your (early) Traci Lords tapes!
The most disturbing case I recall was:
He: 17
She: 16
Found guilty of Statutory Rape, based on age.
Technically, this was open-shut: she was too young to give consent.
OTH: we start vigorously prosecuting teens humping in the back seat, and there is going to be a generation without educated males.
The justification for the prosecution?
According to the Prosecutor, there was “some evidence” that he “cuffed her around some”.
If there was not enough evidence to prosecute as forcible rape, the case should have been dropped, or a competent Prosecutor found. Going for the Statutory was a lazy move and one which established a hideous precedent.
I don’t know and I don’t care, because the OP’s story is set in a bizarro fantasyland where people do things that make no sense.
I have an extremely difficult time believing that a jury would convict a man in such a situation.
Does anyone have actual, verifiable links to examples of juries convicting men of statutory rape in situations like this when the men clearly thought the girls were adults?
I don’t know, but the law allows it.
I’d prefer a situation where juries are allowed to decide whether the man "reasonably* believed the girl was of age. If I was a juror, I’d consider unlikely in the extreme that someone could reasonably believe a 12-year old was of legal age, but if the girl was actually 16 or 17 it seems more reasonable.
Thanks.
What a shock, the actual story only barely resembles the urban legend version.
Speaking of urban legends, that’s what the OP sounds like. It reminds me of all the stories from the 80s and 90s(I’m sure all of us old enough to have heard them remember) of people(usually men but occasionally women) waking up after a one night stand and finding scrawled in the mirror WELCOME TO THE WORLD OF AIDS
I don’t use porn, but my understanding is that legitimate pornography outfits are extremely careful to use of-age models/actresses, for legal reasons if nothing else. If you find the illegal/underage stuff, it’s probably because you were searching for it.
That’s why I picked this example. I would also assume that a strip parlor is also extremely careful about not hiring a 12 yo. I wouldn’t expect a dancer to be 12 yo anymore than I would expect the model on playboy centerfold to be 12 yo.
(It turns out that the 12 yo striper story was very different from what I understood at first. But my point was that there are circumstances where one would have very good reasons to believe that the girl isn’t underage/ the picture isn’t child porn. Of course, Traci Lords is a better, and real, example of people unknowingly owning child porn but I hadn’t thought of her).
The reason why we don’t allow sex with children is not because we are party poopers, but because it is generally harmful to them. A 12 year old that is aggressively seeking adult sex partners needs therapy, not grown men taking advantage of her poor decision making and compounding whatever problem she has.
So I don’t really care how old you thought the victim was. That doesn’t take away from the harm you caused by your own carelessness.
It’s not actually hard to avoid sex with 12 year old. I’ve managed to not do it once in my entire life. I am guessing most of you have managed to do the same most of your life.
I don’t really care what it takes to make sure you sex partner is of age-- ask a dentist to date her teeth, hire a private eye, wait another 18 years just in case. Seriously, whatever it takes for you to be sure. If you still lack that judgement and deductive ability, go celibate. If preteen predators was a real problem rather than a fake one, I’d be all for some kind of “old enough” registry. But the point is that it’s your job to make sure you always have legal and consensual partners.
The law is based on reason. None of those actions are reasonable. If you ask a girl her age and she lies and says she is 18, then it is unreasonable to assign criminal blame on the individual who was lied to. That’s why zero tolerance policies with regard to statutory rape are nonsense. I’m not especially familiar with how these cases play out, but I would imagine if someone didn’t cop a plea and took it to court many times the jury could not in good conscience find a guilty verdict. But, of course, the point of strict liability laws are not moral correctness, but lazy self-righteousness on the part of legislators.
Given the enormous harm that can be caused by getting it wrong, I think it’s reasonable to do some due diligence.
The question is whether or not there’s carelesness. If you sleep with a girl who looks 18 and work in a strip joint, you can’t be accused of carelessness. Unless you define carelessness as “sleeping with anybody who doesn’t have grey hair”.
And presumably, you’ve never been in the situation of being interested in someone who looks 18, tells you he’s 18, has documentation proving he’s 18, whom you met in a place where older than 18 people congregate but in reality is 16. So your experience doesn’t show that you’ve been able to handle the situation, just that you never faced it.
I understand the situation is rare, but I’m not sure why it shouldn’t be adressed. A jury could perfectly hear the specifics of the case and decide. Unless you believe that the average jury is articularly lenient with people having sex with 12 yo.
That statement is ludicrous. You’re talking about “lack of judgement” after listing things that nobody would ever do. If the “lack of judgement” is so obvious, then the jury or judge could easily determine that. If figuring out the age of the partner requires a dental expert testifying in court, nobody should be held to such standards. At some point, it cease to be a matter of good judgement. Besides, a number of people involved in the cases mentioned are teen themselves. You can’t expect of them a level of “judgement” that not even a mature adult would display.
Basically, your stance is “it’s rare, so though luck”. That could be said about many things, especially wrt justice. Most people never see the inside of a court of law, nor as accused, nor as victim. Like you with not sleeping with 12 yo, I managed to not do it once in my entire life. So, maybe I should tell people to just imitate my example, and argue that we don’t need any criminal court. And being raped when you’re 12 is pretty rare too, in fact, so maybe we don’t need laws about that at all. Most 12 yo manage to not be raped, so it can’t be that difficult.
What issue do you have with “It’s rare, so let’s courts decide on the basis of the case presented to them”? As a previous poster, I would have a hard time sentencing to 20 years in jail and a lifetime on the sex offender registry a 16 yo. who had sex with a willing 12 yo he honestly and credibly believed was 16. Apparently, you wouldn’t have such qualms, based on your answer, and you think he should get exactly the same sentence as a 50 yo who knowingly had sex with an unwilling 12 yo who looks like a 12 yo and whom he knew was 12.
I believe that you’re now a mother, and maybe you’re thinking of your kid being victim of a predator at some point of the future, but it could turns out that s/he the one having sex with a 12 yo who looks 16, instead. I’m not sure your stance would still be equally draconian in this situation.
I have no axe to grind on this subject, but I would like to say that I found both these points exceptionally well put.
There was quite a bit of truth to it. Many older age of consent laws had exceptions if the girl could be proven to be promiscuous or was a prostitute.
Given the “enormous harm”, I think it’s reasonable to expect teenagers to so some due diligence and not have sex with anyone that asks.
Besides, it’s not just 12 yo. I’m sure most people who have been sexually active in their teens (like hooking up in clubs, for instance) would be unable to honestly swear they never had sex with someone underage, because people lying about their age isn’t particularly uncommon with teens.
I’m pretty sure a non-insignificant part of the adult population has unknowingly commited statutory rape (and another non-insignificant part knowingly without feeling bad about it).
For myself, I’m off the hook because I unfortunately had a mostly non-existent sex life during my teens, and only ever had medium-term or long-term partners in my life. But if you ever had a one night stand or short term relationship with someone who was rather young, and didn’t ask for dental records, maybe you did, and at least you can’t state with certainty that you didn’t.
Well, fortunately, most people aren’t going to lie about their age when it would mean exposing their sexual partner to a felony charge.