The quotient of the mass of the photons to the mass of the truck’s fuel injector must be known. If not, you’re all a bunch of government-fed sheeple.
-Joe
Yeah…but what is the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow?? Answer THAT one if you dare!
hovers finger over large red button in anticipation
-XT
European, or African?
I don’t see your point. The steel wasn’t in one big chunk, like a giant Christmas turkey; it was in a framework. It would have heated the entire exposed area of steel just as quickly as it would have heated one beam, just as three 6-pound turkeys do not take as long to cook as one 18-pound turkey. And as has been pointed out, it didn’t have to heat ALL the steel in the WTC. Just a bit of it.
I mean, heating steel isn’t a magical science, it’s done all the time; it’s called “heat treating.” I assure you that when heat treating open steel bars and such, it doesn’t matter how many go into the oven. What WOULD matter is if you put in one bar that was much thicker than the others.
Or take that Charleston furniture store fire. A 42,000 square foot steel frame collapsed after about 45 minutes after the fire started; why couldn’t a 40,000 square foot area around the 80th floor do the same in a similar amount of time? What would that mean for the floors above? The floors below?
*For Want of a Nail
For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.*
I’m using that, Drop.
Just be aware he cribbed it from elsewhere…
-XT
What do you mean, an African or a European swallow? “I don’t know that.” Push button.
HELL YEAH! I mean, I’ve been here over nine years. In that time have I ever shown an ounce of creativity when I could’ve cribbed it from elsewhere? 
I’m glad everyone is having fun with the thread while I was away!
Thanks for the links, I’ve read all of this.
I think the key here, XT, is to understand the meaning of one single word:
You say it just doesn’t matter if the Taliban knew what AQ was doing, or if they were involved in any of their operations? Again, tell me how many AQ guys we’re talking about… is it even 100? Probably closer to 10. A police action is required, not the confusion-the conflating- of an entire lawless mid-Asian territory with a Saudi-funded gang of thugs. I don’t see why ‘they were there’ is a good enough reason for you to blow a trillion dollars, kill thousands of innocent foreigners, destroy our reputation, etc etc.
Again, show me maps of the locations of the camps. Show me the first year of US military action for comparison. And tell me how many total AQ guys are in Afghanistan in Oct, 2001. Also, if you can, how many Sudanese AQ guys followed OBL to Afghanistan? Let me guess… their contracts ended, there was no more Saudi money for them, and the answer is zero. Isn’t that right?
Looked at another way. Let’s say the country in question is France- there are AQ guys in France you know!!!
Obama: Hey Sarkosi, you need to hand over Bin Laden immediately, and crack down on AQ.
Sarkosi: Hmmm, he might be in the Pyrrennes, or is it the beaches around Nice? No! Cologne. Hmmm, I’m not sure where he is exactly, I’ll have my people look into it.
Obama: You have 3 days. Or else!
Sarkosi: Well you know, OBL fought in the French Resistance against the Nazis, and personally saved 143 Jews from certain death (facts changed for regional relevance). We’ll need to see the evidence before we can just turn him over.
Obama: Evidence? Ha! I have a better idea. How about you blow me, Frenchie? How do you like that? Turn him over or eat lead, sucker.
Sarkosi: Ha ha! I will not respond to that! Do you know how many Frenchmen it takes to defend Paris? Trick question, no one knows, it has never been tried, ha ha. But we are about to find out.
You see? It is crap politics. You’ve tried to divide the facts into what does and doesn’t matter. With Bush, it was all the facts that didn’t matter. We were going to have a full-blown war because that is what he wanted, not because it was appropriate. Since there seems to be fuck-all of value in Afghanistan, we can speculate if the evangelical base really got its hate on to undo some imaginary Caliphate and kill tens of thousands of random Muslims in the process, secret treasure, or what’s the motive. In the end it was only the idiots- the political evangelicals, the big business swindlers, the war profiteers and the dim- left standing behind Bush and his stupid wars.
Except the facts were presented to you repeatedly, and it was appropriate. You just don’t seem to be accepting the evidence presented to you. We keep showing you the evidence and you keep asking for more. I don’t think there’s any way to meet your unreasonable criteria.
Not to belabor the point, there were people in Afghanistan that were out to get the US and several other nations, they had done it in the past and were preparing to do so in the future. There were legitimate reasons for going in there and dealing with the very real problem. This wasn’t a stupid war, even if some of the execution was stupid. The majority of the world was behind this war, not just a few vested interests.
Leave the war in Iraq out of this as it really doesn’t come into play yet.
I don’t think my criteria are so unreasonable. It wasn’t Afghanistan that attacked us, it was a Saudi-funded cabal that had a small bit of its operation in Afghanistan. There is a lot of hand-waving going on by the war apologists to make them appear to be the same thing. They are not.
I’ve looked at the evidence and I’m finding it wanting. Who cares if so-and-so went to the same school as another guy from the same region? It isn’t relevant. The Taliban isn’t the international terrorist organization that it has been presented to be. The least we could have done is share the evidence that OBL was responsible for the attacks before deciding that they ‘weren’t cooperating’. As it stands, the prelims were merely bullshit theater, the decision for war was already made.
Not attacking Afghanistan-or any other place without good cause- would meet my ‘unreasonable’ criteria. Obviously it is too late for that.
The majority of the world was dealing with the same misconception that (I believe) we’re dealing with here, namely the conflating of the Taliban (and every inch of Afghan territory) with AQ.
Attacking AQ? Not stupid. Attacking Kabul and the rest of Afghanistan? I think it is utterly, absolutely stupid, and I want my trillion dollars back.
It appears that you haven’t read the cites already provided so I don’t see the point in providing more.
I’ve never seen anyone so desperate to believe a conpiracy theory fail so miserably at coming up with one. People make these up all the time, T2B. Let me help get you started: start with trillionaires (this being a codeword for “Jews”), rant about “who’s really running things,” question - repeatedly and louly - something irrelevant that wouldn’t make any difference even if you got the answer (“HOW MUCH DRYWALL WAS IN THE WTC???”), and call everybody who disagrees with you “sheeple.” Then back to 1. Now take it from the top.
Hmmm, this response seems like nonsense to me. For one, I’m not in need of believing a conspiracy theory- I don’t think I’m promoting one. I think the war in Afghanistan is fishy, but I’m saying so in an unfortunately titled thread.
If it is actually all about Jews, do tell me how so. If you’re interpreting my comments to assert that Jews are somehow behind this, you’re misinterpreting me.
I don’t know if this thread can be useful to me any longer. If I point out what information I have not been able to uncover (how many AQ guys actually in Afghanistan? How many from Sudan? Show me a map of the camps? Show me the details of the first year of US military involvement in Afghanistan?) I will be compared to psykeyhackr, who repeatedly asks for the volume of steel and concrete on each floor of the towers, presumably to demonstrate that the buildings’ oscillations expresses the loss of too much energy for the planes to have damaged the support structures in the towers… though that isn’t clear, and the whole point seems like a dead end anyway.
I don’t see this going any farther. I’m not getting my (actually relevant) questions answered, and (I think) because of the poor title of the thread, I am being regarded as defending obscure positions that I don’t maintain. Or I’m being dealt with in poor faith.
As I said, I’m not sure that this thread can be of any further use to me.
[QUOTE=Try2B Comprehensive]
I don’t know if this thread can be useful to me any longer. If I point out what information I have not been able to uncover (how many AQ guys actually in Afghanistan? How many from Sudan? Show me a map of the camps? Show me the details of the first year of US military involvement in Afghanistan?) I will be compared to psykeyhackr, who repeatedly asks for the volume of steel and concrete on each floor of the towers, presumably to demonstrate that the buildings’ oscillations expresses the loss of too much energy for the planes to have damaged the support structures in the towers… though that isn’t clear, and the whole point seems like a dead end anyway.
[/QUOTE]
Especially since most of what you are asking for has either been provided to you or is available by simply using google to look it up. You have yet to say why it’s important, or what you are driving at, and basically no one is interested in the side discussion enough to make it worth their while to look up more info that you will ignore. You are the only one who seems to think our invasion of Afghanistan was ‘fishy’, after all. It seems pretty straight forward to just about everyone else.
My suggestion is that if you REALLY want to know, start a GQ thread on the subject, as questions for information like that belong in there…and this thread has already be beaten to death and really isn’t about what you are asking for in any case. Most of the participants in the thread are either lurking or, more likely, have already unsubscribed to the thread and moved on.
Personally, I think the key word here is ‘ignore’…which is what you seem bound and determined to do for any info provided to you on this side discussion. You’ve been lead to knowledge, but no one can make you think…
-XT
How many ovens can heat treat 100 tons at a time?
With 100,000 tons of steel on 116 levels that is an average of 862 tons per level. And the steel in the columns is going to conduct between levels. So heating enough to weaken in less than 2 hours isn’t going to be an easy task. So since the amount of steel tapered up the building why shouldn’t we know the amount on each level to get a handle on this problem?
We are just supposed to BELIEVE without asking?
psik
I refer you back to the For want of a nail proverb I posted earlier. To cause a building to collapse does not require every bit or iron to be heated to the point of failure. All it takes is a small somewhat of it to reach that point. The rests follows because it’s not stressed to survive more than one or two times what is needed to keep it intact from day to day.
However, on this and other fora you have continued to ignore this fact for YEARS, which would suggest you are either stupid, a liar, or a troll. I provide it merely for the new folks. I have no hope for you beyond your eventual banishment, when you are forced to peddle your lies elsewhere.
(ETA: Mods, did I go too far? Or if I have to ask, then ‘Yeah?’)
Not going to comb through this entire thread, but just wanted to check… someone has pointed out to T2B that AQ was an official part of the Afghan government, right?