Yeah, he was told. He doesn’t believe and/or thinks the whole invasion was ‘fishy’.
-XT
You’re aware that steel is a poor conductor of heat, right?
It don’t matter how many Jenga blocks you got - you take out the bottom ones and they all come down.
Yah but what if you replace the Jenga blocks with toothpicks?
Then they don’t make so much noise when they fall.
And when it heats up it gets worse.
Way too far.
Don’t do this again.
He is sticking to this single thread, so he is not harming the board. If he bothers you, stop opening the thread.
[ /Modding ]
Answered over and over, no where near 862 tons had to heat, just a few key columns, once again.
Wood vs. Steel. (Would you ask these questions if it was wood?)
Fire
Heavy Buckling.
This is silly and, with all your (claims of) “research,” it looks even sillier.
Go watch a farrier or an iron smith work, some time. When heat is applied to steel, only the portion directly in the flame actually turns color and becomes malleable. Sure, a certain amount of heat “travels” down the length of the piece being worked, but raising a bar to 180°F to make it hurt one’s hand is a long way from drawing off so much heat as to render the worked portion too cool to be malleable. In fact, only the section that is directly in the flame actually changes color and become workable. Just an inch or so from the flame, the bar remains dark as the heat is not sufficient to make it easier to shape. The idea that the entire skeleton of the WTC was a massive heat sink drawing off the heat from the flames of the burning floors is utter rubbish.
Although Meatwad essentially responded to this, I’m going to again point out that if you think a measurement of the steel mass on each floor is of more than tangential interest, then you clearly don’t understand the physics.
Although it can be informative to educate yourself about combustion and heat transfer and kinetics and vibrations and so forth, and it’s even more informative to do some calculations and experiments, you’re not doing yourself any favors by fixating on irrelevant information, or performing incorrect calculations.
Nah… you’re just the guy who likes to talk to people in this kind of tone.
Why it is important:
-How many AQ guys from Sudan? If the answer is zero, it demonstrates that AQ is a function of Saudi money more than anything else. Bin Laden’s role is as a financial focal point.
-Map of the camps? So we can know the map of the actual enemy locations, pretty obvious.
-Description of the 1st war of military action? Mainly to show that it didn’t involve going after AQ, but conquering this territory instead.
You say you’ve provided these answers or they’re easy to find, for the effect I guess, but AFAIK the info isn’t available. I wouldn’t bring it up otherwise. Please don’t repeat this point without a link.
AQ an official part of the Afghan government? Really? Not OBL of course, but some guy who knows some guy who knows some guy is involved, right? I admit the details of this point are unclear to me. I do know that both the Taliban and AQ were funded by the Saudis, which seems the relevant point. If some other point is more relevant and I missed it, well gee I’m really sorry if I haven’t assembled a perfect mosaic of the entire AQ-Taliban structure after wading through the insults for the actually relevant details the first time around.
My suggestion, XT, is to not change the subject. Don’t go on about what you’ve already posted without a link- the questions above haven’t been answered. Don’t say what’s easy to Google- either post a link or respond to someone else. Spare me the speculations of what percentage of former posters have what opinion. Yah, this thread is a big mess and not well-titled, and I’m obviously not a graduate-level expert on the subject, but Afghanistan is where the discussion leads from 911. IOW, please stick to the subject and be factual, or you aren’t fighting ignorance.
I am not supporting Try2B - search the thread and you will find where I have tried to dispel his ignorance - but FinnAgain, where do you get this from?
My reading on the situation pre-9/11 shows that AQ were welcome guests in southern Afganistan, they were not - according to any source I have seen - “an official part of the Afgan government”. If there is evidence of this I would be very interested.
Five Sudanese Islamists were convicted for the killings of John Granville and his driver. Al-Qaeda in the Land of the Two Niles (i.e.: Al-Qaeda in Sudan) reportedly took credit for their deaths. Back in February, Osama’s #2 guy urged his Sudanese bretheren to continue their jihad.
“Saudi money” is like “American money.” Rich individuals in both nations, (or in Britain, France, Geermany, Singalpore, Kuwait, UAE, or anywhere else), are always able to support nasty people (or good people), whether it is the IRA in Northern Ireland, United Fruit in Central America, or anywhere else.
Your persistent use of the phrase “Saudi money” or other references to Saudis strongly implies that you see some sort of link between the Saudi government and al Qaida and the Taliban.
Now, you are the one who gets to provide the references to back up that insinuation.
(And I do not know where Finn got the notion that al Qaida was directly involved with the Taliban or Afghanistan government. I would await his references.)
I hope a quick cite will suffice but perhaps I can dig up something more thorough. It’s hard to get the proper hits now as most of the top google results are about recent AQ-Taliban stuff.
Anyways, AQ was a part of the Taliban’s Ministry of Defense both
de facto
D’oh, second link is borked.
This should be the working link.
It was also in the Wiki cite:
I even cited this passage earlier, though Try2B Comprehensive ignored it.
[QUOTE=Try2B Comprehensive]
My suggestion, XT, is to not change the subject. Don’t go on about what you’ve already posted without a link- the questions above haven’t been answered. Don’t say what’s easy to Google- either post a link or respond to someone else. Spare me the speculations of what percentage of former posters have what opinion. Yah, this thread is a big mess and not well-titled, and I’m obviously not a graduate-level expert on the subject, but Afghanistan is where the discussion leads from 911. IOW, please stick to the subject and be factual, or you aren’t fighting ignorance.
[/QUOTE]
Since you haven’t seemingly read ANY of the info provided to you thus far and continue to believe what you are going to believe I fail to see the motivation to provide you with more info that you can look up. The bases AQ had in Afghanistan? That’s easily found using Google, as I told you, and after you ignored or blew off the 4th or 5th cite I DID provide you I didn’t feel compelled to find that for you as well. Perhaps some other 'doper would enjoy providing you with data you can ignore in the future…me, I’m not seeing the motivation.
Google is your friend. Click on a few links, give it a whirl. The answer isn’t zero, so this doesn’t demonstrate anything. As for ‘Saudi money’, you keep throwing that around as if it’s meaningful. It isn’t. Rich Saudi’s supporting an organization like AQ is like when rich American’s supported various terrorist groups in Ireland. The key point, which you seem incapable of grasping, is that the GOVERNMENT (either Saudi or US) isn’t supporting the terrorist group…merely rich citizens. Since it’s what you are getting at, again, the reason we didn’t invade Saudi but did invade Afghanistan is because Al Qaeda was IN Afghanistan and had OFFICIAL sanction and support from the Taliban. They weren’t in Saudi, had no bases in Saudi, and did not have official sanction or support from the Saudi government. Why this is hard for you to grasp (8+ YEARS after these events originally unfolded) is beyond me. That you think this is all ‘fishy’ is beyond me.
We’ve all seen them man! We all saw them in 2001 on TV for gods sake. Are you seriously disputing that AQ had bases in Afghanistan?? Here are some maps (I can’t believe I broke down and looked this up for you)…knock yourself out.
It’s in the Wiki cite I’ve shown you about a half dozen times. Try reading it.
-XT
Thanks to everybody who is giving a straight answer! I like that. I might as well get cracking on the entire 911 commission report, and I’ll give an informed reply to all soon.
Off the top of my head, in another thread I read Prince Turki al Faisal (sp?)- something like the head of the information ministry- was identified as one government-associated wealthy Saudi who gave money to AQ. I will try to come back with a good cite for you, I just don’t have time now, but wanted to acknowledge at least this much tonight.
As for my insinuations about SA and AQ. Yeah, I think Saudi money is the real cove AQ has been harboring it’s boat in. Saudi government money? If by that you mean the King, no, I’ve never seen it suggested that he supports funding AQ. I don’t personally think so either. Other government guys? One, off the top of my head.
I agree a significant portion, maybe most of the Saudi money is probably private in origin.
Well, to be fair, that particular bit didn’t seem to have a cite attached to it in the Wiki article.