[QUOTE=kanicbird]
The heat death of the universe is pretty much the eternal end. But lets go with what you state, given enough time everything that can happen will this means:
There will be a duplicate person exactly the same as you Czarcasm somewhere in the universe(s) doing the exact same thing, exact not only on the genetic level, but down to the last atom, and quantum state of that atom on a exact copy of the earth orbiting the exact copy of the sun, again exact to the quantum level. And not just a single copy but a infinite number of exact copies.
Another way to disprove this theory, which atheists like to hang their hat on is given a infinite number of roulette wheels spinning a infinite number of times, according to the theory there are some of the wheels that will never ever ever throughout eternity come up with #26. But given the same theory any roulette with a infinite number of spins will not only come up with every number but a equal distribution of all numbers.
There are some things so unlikely as they will never happen without help.
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There is some debate on what is actually improbable and what is impossible. See posts 65 through 73.
As far as the first section of your post is concerned, yes. Given an eternity, events are going to repeat.
[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
Now I can get behind that. I think all churches could do the same thing, and I don’t think they really need churches anyway. They could meet at each others homes or pay “admission” at a rented hall or what have you. I just find the “organized” aspect of religion to be unnecessary and indirectly promotes separation from the rest of the world. The do-gooder aspect of religion can be achieved individually, as well. Belief and personal understanding is all that counts, when you get down to it. It shouldn’t matter if others do or don’t agree with you. At the end of the day, there is no group; it’s only you and your belief.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
There is some debate on what is actually improbable and what is impossible. See posts 65 through 73.
As far as the first section of your post is concerned, yes. Given an eternity, events are going to repeat.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks didn’t read those posts. So are you contending that given a eternity anything that ever happened will happen again a infinite # of times?
Again we have no proof that there is a infinite amount of time, and for that matter space. Current theory is that both are finite.
I would place the atheistic miracle of the origin of life here along with a few other wild theories that appear is a roulette wheel that never hit # 26
[QUOTE=kanicbird]
I would place the atheistic miracle of the origin of life here along with a few other wild theories that appear is a roulette wheel that never hit # 26
[/QUOTE]
Silly…Atheists don’t believe in miracles. We are always willing (eager) to change our thinking on a subject should the evidence present itself.
[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
Now I can get behind that. I think all churches could do the same thing, and I don’t think they really need churches anyway. They could meet at each others homes or pay “admission” at a rented hall or what have you. I just find the “organized” aspect of religion to be unnecessary and indirectly promotes separation from the rest of the world. The do-gooder aspect of religion can be achieved individually, as well. Belief and personal understanding is all that counts, when you get down to it. It shouldn’t matter if others do or don’t agree with you. At the end of the day, there is no group; it’s only you and your belief.
[/QUOTE]
Jesus sent his apostles out just to talk to people and rely on their kindness for food and shelter.
You’re spot on about the end of the day. Ever since I first joined any church I saw people struggling to actually live up to the principles they praised and talked about on Sunday. What bothered me was when they justified their actions with a “yeah but thats Sunday and this is the real world” attitude. It occurred to me then and still remains, that if our beliefs aren’t really reflected in our actions and how we treat people day to day moment to moment, then what’s the point? It isn’t as easy as just deciding to be good. It’s a process. Seeing my own faults helps me be more forgiving of others. We don’t stop being real people because we believe.
Many denominations started by meeting in homes. Many still do in areas when the group is small and can’t support a building.
I’d add though that people coming together is powerful. There’s a local Methodist church that has a homeless shelter in it’s basement that it supports and volunteers work at. The idea of Sunday meeting is to take a break from the work and worries of the day to day and remind ourselves that we are in this together. To sing and talk and listen and hopefully feel renewed in spirit. To remind ourselves that life can be more than just a struggle for material success and we can be a part of trying to make things better. I’d be willing to bet that within almost any congregation you’d find the people don’t all agree on every detail. Even though organized religion has it’s problems the function of people gathering together to lend each other support and the search for a purposeful life can be a good thing. .
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
Jesus sent his apostles out just to talk to people and rely on their kindness for food and shelter.
You’re spot on about the end of the day. Ever since I first joined any church I saw people struggling to actually live up to the principles they praised and talked about on Sunday. What bothered me was when they justified their actions with a “yeah but thats Sunday and this is the real world” attitude. It occurred to me then and still remains, that if our beliefs aren’t really reflected in our actions and how we treat people day to day moment to moment, then what’s the point? It isn’t as easy as just deciding to be good. It’s a process. Seeing my own faults helps me be more forgiving of others. We don’t stop being real people because we believe.
Many denominations started by meeting in homes. Many still do in areas when the group is small and can’t support a building.
I’d add though that people coming together is powerful. There’s a local Methodist church that has a homeless shelter in it’s basement that it supports and volunteers work at. The idea of Sunday meeting is to take a break from the work and worries of the day to day and remind ourselves that we are in this together. To sing and talk and listen and hopefully feel renewed in spirit. To remind ourselves that life can be more than just a struggle for material success and we can be a part of trying to make things better. I’d be willing to bet that within almost any congregation you’d find the people don’t all agree on every detail. Even though organized religion has it’s problems the function of people gathering together to lend each other support and the search for a purposeful life can be a good thing. .
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Well, I’m not much of a joiner. I don’t need groupthink to know that other people need food and shelter. The money I would spend supporting a church would be better spent supporting, say, someone’s AIDS meds for however long. Or feeding people. I just think any reasonable person can do all these things without joining anything, but because they need doing. Atheists do it all the time. I get the “coming together” thing; I just don’t get why they have to “come together” on something unrelated to being a good person.
[QUOTE=kanicbird]
Thanks didn’t read those posts. So are you contending that given a eternity anything that ever happened will happen again a infinite # of times?
Again we have no proof that there is a infinite amount of time, and for that matter space. Current theory is that both are finite.
I would place the atheistic miracle of the origin of life here along with a few other wild theories that appear is a roulette wheel that never hit # 26
[/QUOTE]
Please refer back to the first three words in my contention:“Given an eternity…”. If there is no eternity, obviously the whole theory falls apart. Of course, equally obviously, if the universe ends in a big ball of static nothingness forever trillions of years from now, your chances of life after death in Heaven are shot, too.
[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
Well, I’m not much of a joiner. I don’t need groupthink to know that other people need food and shelter. The money I would spend supporting a church would be better spent supporting, say, someone’s AIDS meds for however long. Or feeding people. I just think any reasonable person can do all these things without joining anything, but because they need doing. Atheists do it all the time. I get the “coming together” thing; I just don’t get why they have to “come together” on something unrelated to being a good person.
[/QUOTE]
In their mind it isn’t unrelated. It’s part good person maintenance and part, I like how it feels.
You’re right. People don’t need group think to be a good person or to help others. I haven’t gone to church for some time because I didn’t find a place I felt comfortable.
However, not all people operate the same way so if it works for them fine, if it doesn’t work for others, also fine.
I don’t like the polarizing effect of some teachings. We’re right, they’re wrong, we’re going to heaven , they’re not. Bugs the crap out of me.
If you haven’t seen the Colbert bit where the word is the Unquisition check it out. It’s funny, but he does make a point. I don’t think the solution is to create another Us vs Them attitude. IMO it’s finding a way to allow each other to choose what works for us, but also press forward with education.
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
In their mind it isn’t unrelated. It’s part good person maintenance and part, I like how it feels.
You’re right. People don’t need group think to be a good person or to help others. I haven’t gone to church for some time because I didn’t find a place I felt comfortable.
However, not all people operate the same way so if it works for them fine, if it doesn’t work for others, also fine.
I don’t like the polarizing effect of some teachings. We’re right, they’re wrong, we’re going to heaven , they’re not. Bugs the crap out of me.
If you haven’t seen the Colbert bit where the word is the Unquisition check it out. It’s funny, but he does make a point. I don’t think the solution is to create another Us vs Them attitude. IMO it’s finding a way to allow each other to choose what works for us, but also press forward with education.
[/QUOTE]
Some might consider that a contradiction in terms.
I get that it works for some. That’s what makes it so sad. I hear many believers who say that without religion they’d have no reason to be kind to their fellow man. I fear the day they see the light!
[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
Some might consider that a contradiction in terms.
I get that it works for some. That’s what makes it so sad. I hear many believers who say that without religion they’d have no reason to be kind to their fellow man. I fear the day they see the light!
[/QUOTE]
I guess that explains why they find it hard to believe atheists can be good people.
Yeah, some would consider that a contradiction. More’s the pity. I get frustrated when people claim to value truth so highly but refuse to look at what’s right in front of them.
In the thread on faith I was arguing that true faith moves forward while considering and weighing new evidence and experience as it appears. The faith that denies evidence is a perversion of the word too commonly accepted.
I’m sure to make loads of fundie friends with that idea. It wasn’t even popular with most of the atheists in that thread.
[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
I hear many believers who say that without religion they’d have no reason to be kind to their fellow man. I fear the day they see the light!
[/QUOTE]
Kinda makes me wonder if it’s really such a good idea to expedite the process.
Like deposing Hussein – sure, he was a sadist, but he kept people’s worst urges in check.
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
I guess that explains why they find it hard to believe atheists can be good people.
Yeah, some would consider that a contradiction. More’s the pity. I get frustrated when people claim to value truth so highly but refuse to look at what’s right in front of them.
[/QUOTE]
Um, yeah it is a contradiction. If the only thing holding you back from murdering and raping is the idea that there is a god watching you then 1) you are a bad person, one might go so far as to say psychotic, and 2) you just keep believing in that there invisible person in the sky, it might be best for all of us.
I don’t need a god threatening me with hell to be good. I can see lots of reasons not to rape and murder as well as reasons to be nice to my fellow man without it. The fact that you can’t worries me.
Yeah, that’s because you never quite got the idea that faith is not based in rationality, and that holding onto what their faith tells is what people do in spite of rationality. I’d explain it all again, but it would probably be just as wasted as the last time.
[QUOTE=hotflungwok]
Um, yeah it is a contradiction. If the only thing holding you back from murdering and raping is the idea that there is a god watching you then 1) you are a bad person, one might go so far as to say psychotic, and 2) you just keep believing in that there invisible person in the sky, it might be best for all of us.
I don’t need a god threatening me with hell to be good. I can see lots of reasons not to rape and murder as well as reasons to be nice to my fellow man without it. The fact that you can’t worries me
[/QUOTE]
.
I’ll thank you not to put words in my mouth. If you can find anyplace where I’ve indicated I believe that then produce it or have the integrity to admit your error.
Seriously!!
Wrong again. What was actually discussed was different types of faith and I’m pretty sure I understood all of them, including the rational kind I pointed out.
Please don’t explain again. I’ve already evaluated your take on it and filed it appropriately. Thanks
[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
Silly…Atheists don’t believe in miracles. We are always willing (eager) to change our thinking on a subject should the evidence present itself.
[/QUOTE]
And not believing in miracles is what makes Atheistism one of the hardest belief system to honestly accept, you have to beleive in miracles without them being possible.
[QUOTE=kanicbird]
And not believing in miracles is what makes Atheistism one of the hardest belief system to honestly accept, you have to beleive in miracles without them being possible.
[/QUOTE]
I’d reply, but…I just can’t make this make any sense, no matter how I rephrase it in my head. I don’t know if it’s that word “Atheistism”, the fact that even after untold numbers of threads on the subject you still refer to it as a “belief system”, or your saying that “Atheistism” is the hardest “belief system” because we dare to actually ask for evidence before accepting the existence of the impossible. I just don’t know what level of wrongness to address first.
[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
I’d reply, but…I just can’t make this make any sense, no matter how I rephrase it in my head. I don’t know if it’s that word “Atheistism”, the fact that even after untold numbers of threads on the subject you still refer to it as a “belief system”, or your saying that “Atheistism” is the hardest “belief system” because we dare to actually ask for evidence before accepting the existence of the impossible. I just don’t know what level of wrongness to address first.
[/QUOTE]
For me, it’s this clause right here:
[QUOTE=kanicbird]
you have to beleive in miracles without them being possible.
[/QUOTE]
Why on Earth would anyone have to believe in miracles? Of all the things in the world to not believe in, they seem to me among the easiest…
(ETA: Ah, nevermind, I went back and re-read, and kanicbird is clearly referring to how (s?)he sees (even) the atheistic origin of life as a “miracle”. Fair enough, though of course most of us would see it differently. Still, my apologies for misunderstanding.)
[QUOTE=kanicbird]
And not believing in miracles is what makes Atheistism one of the hardest belief system to honestly accept, you have to beleive in miracles without them being possible.
[/QUOTE]
Say that out loud in front of a tape recorder. Play it back. Seriously…listen to yourself.
[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
I’d reply, but…I just can’t make this make any sense, no matter how I rephrase it in my head. I don’t know if it’s that word “Atheistism”, the fact that even after untold numbers of threads on the subject you still refer to it as a “belief system”, or your saying that “Atheistism” is the hardest “belief system” because we dare to actually ask for evidence before accepting the existence of the impossible. I just don’t know what level of wrongness to address first.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks Czarcasm I had a great laugh at your post. But getting down to the nuts and bolts here, atheist must believe that the impossible happened - that being that creation happened without a creator. It is a illogical belief system and self contradictory IMHO.
