Based on the knowledge (not “faith”) at hand, it’s infinitely easier to believe that we just happened. It makes perfect sense (though we’re open to correction, should new evidence surface). Certainly it makes more sense than inventing an answer with no proof to back it up.
As others have often pointed out before in history, invoking God as a creator does nothing to solve the (pseudo-)problem of creation. Who, then, created God? “Why, God created himself.” Well, if you accept the notion of self-creation, why can’t the universe create itself? What’s so special about God (and so unspecial about the universe) that it’s not a problem for God to self-create, but it is, somehow, a problem for the universe to do so?
At any rate, existence doesn’t imply an act of creation. One can at least logically conceive of a universe that simply has existed, always, there never having been a moment of creation. Of course, based on various physical observations, we don’t generally accept that conception (instead taking the universe to have begun with the Big Bang or some such), but it does show that there’s no logical contradiction in a universe without a creation, much less a creator, much much less a creator that is God.
I don’t believe I posted a “smiley” at the end of that post.
You want to get down to the nuts and bolts? Fine, I’ll provide a few “bolts”, then. Atheism is not a belief system. It is not more logical to believe in “miracles” than not to. To claim that it is illogical to believe that a world could come into being giving enough time and materials(not created, come into being-I’m not going to play silly word games with you) is infinitely more logical than believing that an invisible “god” wished it into being in a matter of days. What evidence we have supports my theory so far, and I’m will to change my theory when more evidence comes in. All you’ve got is blind faith.
I don’t believe I posted a “smiley” at the end of that post.
You want to get down to the nuts and bolts? Fine, I’ll provide a few “bolts”, then. Atheism is not a belief system. It is not more logical to believe in “miracles” than not to. To claim that it is illogical to believe that a world could come into being given enough time and materials(not created, come into being-I’m not going to play silly word games with you) is infinitely more logical than believing that an invisible “god” wished it into being in a matter of days. What evidence we have supports my theory so far, and I’m will to change my theory when more evidence comes in. All you’ve got is blind faith.
Why do you refer to it as impossible? What I’d have to question is why god waited all those billions of years (you do believe that the universe is billions of years old, don’t you?) to create man.
Yes I know how it sounds, and how I view Atheistism. You have to twist yourself into a pretzel to accept it.
Hoooo-kay… Next!
What the hell is “Atheistism”?
That what atheists believe in when they graduate atheist school. It’s a BA degree.
I thought it was BS…
I can’t really disagree with what you have to say. That’s the way I lived most of the time since the big shift in my beliefs – and it was very comfortable for me. There was nothing wrong about it.
But in the last last six months I did find a small church that is helping me to help others. There really is strength in numbers sometimes. When the young people in the church fasted for thirty hours and then had a carwash to raise money for World Vision, I contributed when otherwise I wouldn’t have.
Through my funky little Sunday School class of seven people, I learned about an American Indian program called Restorative Justice.. The purpose is to return the remains of Native Americans to sacred grounds for burial. I will be participating in that program by providing either a burial cloth or a box or a bolt of fabric for making burial cloths.
Again from that same class, I’ve discovered that the poorest county in the United States is at Pine Ridge, South Dakota – home to many Lakota Sioux who have no heat in the winter. That is where most of my tithes have gone by my choice.
What has been given back to me takes my breath away. It is not like what you see on television. It is so frustrating when everyone thinks that’s all there is.
What if the Chinese thought all Western women were like Paris Hilton?
BTW. I once had a minister who worked for only a dollar a year. He had inherited wealth and didn’t need a salary. He shared what he had.
You will always be able to find examples of those who exploit religion and believers. Don’t let that be all that you consider.
Lovely Zoe
Often we are influenced by the loud jackasses who get the most press.
Religion isn’t perfect but there are some real gems in there. It’s very inspiring and moving sometimes. I have been attending the local Bahai center and really enjoying it. Nice sincere folks with unpretentious heartfelt services. I’ll be singing there this Sunday. It’s nice to raise my voice in that spirit.
Shhhhh… They don’t know that yet.
I think this is what DtC was essentially saying, though. The limit is 0, which means the probability approaches zero, but is never actually zero.
I’m confused by what you mean by this statement, kanicbird.
To use the common clock-in-a-box example: I toss the parts of a clock into a box, close the lid and shake it around. When I remove the lid, a fully-functional, working clock has been assembled. I wouldn’t necessarily classify this as a miracle - there was a very very small chance that something like this could occur.
OTOH, imagine Jesus came to me with an empty box. He shows me it’s empty, puts a lid on it, and shakes it around. When he removes the lid, I see that a fully-functional, working clock has been assembled. I would classify this as a miracle.
IMO, one of these scenarios defies the laws of physics as we’ve observed them, and the other merely defies some odds.
LilShieste
If N is finite, the probability of N heads in a row is not actually zero. However, the probability of getting infinitely many heads in a row is equivalent, in the conventional mathematical theory of probability, to the limit of the finite case as N goes to infinity. And that limit is precisely 0. I know, I know, one wants to think of “probability of zero” as the same thing as “impossible”, but it’s not. Cite.
Consider my ignorance fought, re: probability theory. 
LilShieste
I’m not saying no good can come from people coming together; in fact, I agree that a group effort can be very effective in getting things done. I’m simply saying that it isn’t necessary to incorporate a “middle man”, if you will, to be effective. To use your example I can send money to Pine Ridge (which, incidently, is a great way to spend charitable dollars), too…as do thousands of people. And I don’t have to spend my “other” charitable dollar supporting a building or a pastor. I think the little groups such as yours, or secular organizations, can be as effective as an entire church (maybe moreso) in spreading the word of caring for each other. The charitable side of me isn’t inspired “divinely”; it comes from the realization that there is suffering in the world that can be alleviated somewhat by my actions.
I came from a small town and all the congregations I’ve belonged to have been small. I prefer it that way. We have a few Mega churches around here. I think they did a Meet the Press special at Two Rivers Baptist. I couldn’t believe the inside. The service area is a large auditorium. I have a hard time wrapping my mind around multi million dollar churches. It tends to become big business instead of heartfelt service. Perhaps that’s just me.
I went with a friend to an Assembly of God. A few hundred people. The music was excellent. This church supports an orphanage in Mexico. When their new worship center was being built my friend went to the meeting about buying a new sound system. They were discussing which new sound board to buy. The great $20,000 board or the even greater $27,000 board with automated faders. My friend mentioned that $7,000 would go a long long way at the orphanage and was shushed. “Thats not what we’re talking about”
Isn’t the act of getting together on Sunday to help fix the roof or the furnace of some poor family an act of worship?
It’s an ongoing struggle even among the faithful.
This beast is right up the street from me. I challenge you to get past that building on Sunday in less than 20 minutes. It’s a mob scene.
http://www.willowcreek.org/what_we_believe.asp
They also encouraged high school kids to dump their “other” friends and hang with other church members exclusively (so my friend told me as relayed to her by her daughter).
I couldn’t find many pictures but the parking lot map was scary enough. Any church that puts this
first in their belief section bothers me. That means they are teaching that error to the many people who come there every week.
Here’s Two Rivers. Very professional website. What made me laugh was the Starbucks add in the eleven:01 youth worship section. “We proudly serve Starbucks coffee at every eleven:01 service”, complete with logo.
I checked out Smyrna Assembly of God and noticed they had no pictures either. What’s up with that? Three Mega churches with few pictures of the church?