Global Warming...

Given the recent blurring of the lines between politics and science (at least in the US anyway), there has been increasing chatter regarding global warming and whether it is as serious a threat as it has been made out to be in the past. So my questions are these:

How serious is global warming? Is it as great a threat as scientists in the past few decades have made it out to be? I have heard critics of global warming go so far as to say that it (global warming) is a big joke. Do their arguments have any merit?

The criticism I hear most often is that there isn’t enough data; they argue that we simply haven’t been recording this kind of information nearly long enough to know whether we’re causing global warming or if it’s simply a natural cycle of rising and falling temperatures. I’ve heard this position argued by geologists, but I wasn’t in a position to ask for a cite.

It’s important to separate the question into:

  1. Is the earth’s temperature rising?
  2. Are humans causing it, and can humans do anything to stop/alleviate it?

For the first question, the consensus among the scientific community (AND beyond) is that yes, temperatures are rising and global warming is undoubtedly a serious problem, it is NOT a big joke. There are plenty of data to back this up. Too many cites to list here, but NOAA’s FAQ on Global Warming is a good start.

To answer the second question, I would say there is more data saying yes, humans are causing it (i.e., it’s due to greenhouse gas emissions), than there is data saying it is due to natural cycling of climate/temperatures. National Geographic recently published an article saying this. You can read the excerpt here. That page also has an extensive list of other websites.

One key thing to note is that the rate of climate change is happening much faster than it has in the past. In the past, climate change due to “natural cycling” ocurred over hundreds, or thousands of years. Now, the increase in temperatures in some parts of the world occured over the span of years or decades. Same thing for rise in sea levels.

I think this might be moved to Great Debates soon (and there’s probably plenty of Climate Change threads there already), but I just wanted to give you some cites to read up on.

Global warming or…what was it Carl Sagan hapred on for years? Something about a feeze?
It all depends on the time frame you have under consideration short term may have some problems. OTH Long term Ice Ages followed by Tropical Climates and around and around we go. Not in our lifetime!

As Alfred E. Newman said; “What me worry?”

Is the November issue of Scientific American, there’s an article presenting recently discovered evidence which challenges this assertion. More and more scientists now believe that major shifts in climate can occur much more rapidly when than previously thought. Of course, this news is welcomed by skeptics of human-caused global warming, since it gives them reason to believe that the recent spike in world temperatures could be natural rather than caused by pollution.

Of course, if it does turn out to be true that climate can change naturally very quickly, that doesn’t prove that the current warming trend is normal. To merely assert that the current situation has natural causes because it’s possible that it has natural causes leads to an unfalsifiable hypothesis.

We know that levels of carbon dioxide and other gases in the atmosphere have increased during the recent period as temperatures have grown warmer. We know that these gases permit visible light to reach the surface but block infrared light, thus creating a greenhouse effect. And we have computer models suggesting that such a greenhouse effect would produce a global temperature increase comparable to the actual one we’ve observed. What we don’t have is a scientific experiment proving that the levels of greenhouse gases are certainly the cause of the temperature increase, so there’s always an escape hatch by which skeptics can insist that there’s no scientific proof of human-caused global warming. But would such an experiment even be possible? What are we supposed to do, build a second planet to use as a control?

Some more reading material:

Computer models

Rising carbon dioxide levels

I think you are referring to Nuclear Winter, which is nothing to do with the subject at hand.

If a sceptic says this, then (IMHO) they lack credibility. There are plenty of sceptics out there, but the good ones have there brain in gear before making pronounments.

You might want to check out (US government) sites such as the EPA or the NOAA

There’s some new news on this issue.

Moving this from GQ to GD.

samclem GQ moderator.

If the claims in this article are in fact true, then it certainly correct to say that we need to re-evaluate Mann’s research and his conclusions. However, I might suggest that this author is slightly exaggerating the effect that this could have on the overall issue. Is Mann among the leading researchers in the field? Yes. Is he the only one? Not even close. There are many researchers and research groups who investigation into historical trends in climate have lead to the conclusion that rising temperatures within the last 100 to 150 years have been statistically anomalous. The fact that so many different investigations have reached the same conclusion makes the result solid enough that it can survive even if one researcher used an incorrect technique.

Some holes in the global warming debate which the media hasnt got time to tell you:

http://www.john-daly.com/

Not saying i agree with this site, but everyone who has an opinion about global warming should be aware of the holes in the argument.

Also, i thought it was general knowledge that the hocky-stick was debunked a while ago…

Sin

The International Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) data is by far the most rigorous and wide-ranging study to date, and even the US governmet now finds its conclusions inescapable.

Humans are undeniably changing the composition of the atmosphere way off natural equilibrium.
The Earth is undeniably hotter than 25 years ago, and 140 years ago (upper graph).

Now, Sam questions whether this 140 year increase is unprecedented in the last 1000 years (lower graph). This will always be tricky to show beyond doubt since we have only been accurately recording those temperatures for those 140 years - before then we have to rely on “proxy data” such as tree growth and ice cores and the like. The article Sam referred to pointed out the difficulties in applying the same procedures to the 140-year recorded data as to the 860-year proxy data. The fundamental question is “what does the graph really look like for 1000-1840?”. It is possible that this method got it wrong, but not so wrong that the level for 1000-1840 was above, or even near, the subsequent rise.

An absolutely essential quote which Sam conveniently forgot to emphasize:

It might be that there was a period of cooling, which somehow didn’t show up in the proxy data, and that we are returning to “normal”. Or that we will soon begin a period of cooling back to “normal”. But these two scenarios are vastly more unlikely than the general consensus: that the temperature in 1800 was roughly as it had been for centuries, and that the greenhouse gases released thereafter are causing global warming.

What I do certainly agree with in that article is that we just don’t understand the climate. It might be that we can go on forcing greenhouse gases way off equilibrium and the negative consequences will “level off” their current rate of increase. It could be that scaling back emissions to near 1990 levels is just enough to prevent any more negative consequences developing. It could be that we are already past the point of no return and an absolute catastrophe of Gulf-Stream disruption and sea level-rises similar to the inexplicable chaos 10,000 years ago is just around the corner.

The question is, if you are trapped in a laboratory carrying out a possibly unstable experiment which for all you know might explode at any moment, do you carry on forcing it off equilibrium?

Isn’t it amazing how someone can write several paragraphs discussion what I think based on me posting seven words which just say, “Here is some new news”?

I didn’t ‘conveniently forget to post’ anything - I didn’t post ANYTHING. I read the article, thought it was interesting, and posted the link without comment of any sort. You have no idea where I stand with respect to that article.

Apologies, Sam, yes I suppose I did project a little. Nevertheless, linking to such articles is an important contribution in itself: we must look at the Big Picture of all the evidence, rather than focus overmuch on possible flaws in some of it.

Sam, a posting of a link must imply you think that the link is worthy of posting. In other words, it’s not bullshit. In posting it, you therefore did make an argument that the link is possibly or likely true.

IIRC, I think you do believe in global warming, but believe it is not something that is worth avoiding. So I don’t think you are a skeptic here, therefor the following does not apply to you. But I’ve noticed the same type of argument before, and it really ticks me off. The throwing up of a single factoid or argument, and disregarding the weight of existing research, is a disengenous tactic among so-called “global warming skeptics”. (So-called because a real skeptic believes in science and the scientific method, which so far has shown that global warming exists and is most likely man-made).

I like to think of the global warming issues as a choice. If its wrong or exaggerated… we will lose billions in economic activity and have a better environment in this small planet. If its right and we neglect it… we are talking about a global disaster. I’d rather hedge my bets towards a loss of economic…

I believe that this is also a scare story spread by those influenced by fossil-fuel lobby. The UK will meet Kyoto without any significant economic detriment, mainly via measures which are simply more efficient.

Efficiency certainly helps… but depending on the country the Kyoto protocol can hit economic activity badly. I don’t think its a scare story in the short and medium term… in the long term one might imagine it will help industry through new and more efficient technologies. But will countries share less polluting tech that also gives them an economic edge ?

We have had other threads on this topic before and I’ll try to post links to the most recent extensive previous one later. The IPCC link that SentientMeat posted, along with the EPA pages are a good place to start for a current summary of the science. There have also been reports by the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) and statements by the councils of the American Geophysical Union and by the American Meteorological Society. Some of the oil companies, most notably BP and Shell, have agreed that human-caused climate change poses a real potential threat that requires starting to take action. In fact, BP has already implemented a Kyoto-sized cut in emissions, 8 years early and they claim to be saving money in the bargain.

The basic facts are these:

(1) The CO2, methane, and other “greenhouse gas” levels in the atmosphere are rising and this rise is definitively due to human activity, especially the burning of fossil fuels (with land use changes and such contributing some too).

(2) The basic physics of how these gases trap heat and should lead to global warming is well-understood and was recognized over 100 years ago by Arrhenius who even made a calculation of the size of the effect which is not to far from current best estimates. The greatest source of uncertainty is in various feedback effects that can magnify or reduce this warming…For example, the rise in temperature causes more water to evaporate into the atmosphere and since water vapor itself traps more heat, this will tend to cause a positive feedback (more warming). More water vapor can also mean more condensation to form clouds. Whether clouds cause net warming or cooling depends on lots of things including their height, location around the globe, size of the water droplets in them, etc. and this is still not very well-understood. Another positive feedback is that as the earth warms, the size of glacier and snowpacks shrink which means less solar radiation gets reflected, causing further warming.

(3) Climate models predict that the human-caused rise in greenhouse gas levels will lead to a (globally-averaged) warming of 2.5 to 10 degrees F over the period 1990 to 2100. The uncertainty in the amount of warming reflects both the uncertainties in the feedback effects described above, as well as uncertainty in what our future emissions will be (and, to a lesser degree, the amount of the gases that will be taken back out of the atmosphere by the oceans and land).

(4) The warming will have various other likely associated effects in various parts of the world. One is a sea level rise of some fraction of a meter by 2100, due mainly to the thermal expansion of the water. Others include more extreme precipitation events, both floods and droughts, and general changes in weather patterns. There is also the potential of more dramatic effects…For example, sea level rises of 5 meters or so would occur if most of the land ice on Greenland and Antarctica were to melt, flooding various low-lying areas around the world. Unfortunately, the process by which this melting occurs is highly nonlinear and is only just beginning to be understood.

(5) In the 20th century, there was a warming of about 1 F, with a dramatic spike occurring over the last ~40 years. It is now considered likely that most of the warming seen over the latter part of the century is due to man. So, this is basically the beginning of the expected human-caused alteration of the climate.

It is important to note that the theory of human-caused global warming rests on several independent lines of evidence. Thus, although there is at any one time always controversies brewing over some aspects, it is not like the entire theory rests, for example, on that “hockey stick” plot of the temperatures over the last 1000 years. Even if the warmth at the end of the 20th century turns out not to be the highest it has been in the last 1000 or 2000 years does not mean that the whole science of global warming is wrong. (In fact, perversely, the idea that the earth’s climate system is more variable than previously recognized could be an indication that it is more sensitive to various perturbations than was thought, which could mean that the amount of warming that could occur due to the perturbation we are putting on it could be currently being underestimated.)

The goal of the so-called “skeptics,” who are few in number in the field and often have strong fossil fuel and/or conservative/libertarian think-tank connections is to cherry-pick the few papers (or sometimes, even parts of papers) that might support their view while ignoring the large body that does not. And, when a particular challenge, such as the one to the “hockey stick” graph is brewing, to make people believe that the whole theory of human-caused climate change rests on this one piece of evidence and the entire structure will come crashing down if this piece of evidence turns out to be wrong.

The goal of the IPCC, NAS, and the councils of the various professional societies is to summarize the state of the science at the time by looking at the entire body of peer-reviewed work.