Hey, over in GD, when we get into those religious discussions where everybody is pooh-poohing the idea of miracles…
Can I quote you?
Gobear:
AFAIK, you were acting in the right in trying to defend scott in the phrase that started this whole furore, and the problem lay exclusively in the phrasing. I personally think that what I had to say over in the other thread is applicable: “What matters to a person is what matters to that person.” And all I was trying to say was that infelicitous wording on your part had caused offense to Musicguy – regardless of what you meant by what you said. I personally have immense respect for your determination to stand by what you feel is right, regardless of who’s up against you, and all I wanted to do was to focus you away from a defensive mode into the fact that you had inadvertently done to another gay man what typically we straights do to you – condemn by stereotyping. I’m sincerely sorry I pissed you off in doing so.
Hey. As a child, I was small and weak, not interested in sports, and two years younger than my classmates – many of whom were also the majority of the roughly-my-age neighbor kids. This meant that I didn’t fit in – and to top it off, when they were 13 and becoming interested in girls, I was 11 and wasn’t. So I do think I have a pretty good handle on being ostracized by who you are feels like.
And I’ve mentioned a couple of times that the two times in my life that I’ve fallen in love were with the girl who became my wife and the boy who became my foster son. And though that latter relationship evolved quickly and reshaped itself as we found out who we needed to be for each other, the only to-me-accurate way to describe my feelings for him in the early phases of the relationship is with the romantic terminology. So I do have a grasp on what one man can feel for another man in that regard.
I have noted that I feel called by God to do my best to be a bridge between the gay community and the often-bigoted and generally-misunderstanding Christian community. I buy the Advocate and read the Front Page and Southern Voice (Raleigh and Atlanta gay papers). Whenever I see misunderstanding or flat-out falsehoods, I speak out to the best of my ability.
I’m doing my level best to understand and empathize with you and my other friends here who are gay. I know I haven’t lived your life, or lissener’s or Hastur’s or Hamish’s, but to the extent I can, I feel the sort of pain you must have encountered (god, that sounds Clintonesque!), I do what I can to speak out and correct misunderstandings, and chastise outright hatred and condemnation. Maybe it’s not enough. But it’s the best I can do. Maybe it is a case of “it’s a gay thing; you wouldn’t understand” – but I’m doing all I can to do so. So please don’t throw that sort of thing at me. I cannot do more than I can do; what I can do, I am doing.
**. I didn’t care about the tone, I’m not out for blood.
** must not be talking to me, since I’ve never asserted anything remotely like that. All I was ever saying in that thread was that you unfairly jumped that one other poster. I don’t assume that everyone reads every thread and all, but I’m not often in those threads about people’s sex lives, regardless of orientation.
since I didn’t comment on the subject of ‘what gay men think/do about sex’, ** at all** perhaps this is misdirected?
My only point, was that you behaved rudely IMHO (and apparently that was shared). Here, you seem to be making some rather large and unfounded assumptions about my personal beliefs/attitudes w/o any evidence.
It’s written medium. Tones can easily be misunderstood. I try (don’t always succeed) to allow for a margin of error, not to assume some one else meant an insult where none was made. It might be helpful for you to remember this the next time you feel the urge to call some one else’ s reading comprehension into question.
Bottom line: you behaved in less than perfect manner (as all of us do at some point), you appologized, the appology was accepted. AFAIAC, there’s nothing more to be said.
Although this seems to be mostly wrapped up, I just thought I’d add by way of explination to the reaction to gobear’s comments that whenever anyone makes a statement such as the one in the OP (what gay man hasn’t [gone home with a trick]), it marginalizes anyone who hasn’t. It threatens that person and challenges anyone to disagree. If I were sitting in a group of friends and one of them said, “hey, I took this drunk chick home last night and screwed her. I mean, who hasn’t,” and another person or two agreed, I, as someone who hasn’t (and probably won’t) done that would feel like an outsider, and like my input wasn’t welcome.
Just trying to explain some of the emotion that might be involved in this.
My deepest apologies for hurting your feelings, Polycarp. You are a swell guy with a sincere desire to foster communication between gays and straights, and I totally respect your honesty, your kindness, and your continuing effort to be an exemplar of the Christian life. but it 's not a matter of questioning your sincerity or empathy, but knowledge of what actually goes on.
I suppose a very weak analogy would be saying that because I was once a Chrstian, am well-versed in the New Testament, and have read the works of C. S. Lewis, I am therefore able to say what happens in your particular church service and how your church members behave. But, there’s no way I can know the ins and outs of your church community if I don’t attend your church. How can I know what the sermon was about or who sings off-key? No matter how good my intentions or my empathy, there are some things I just can’t know without actual participation.
I do not in any way question the goodness of your heart. am sorry you got caught in the crossfire between me and certain of the irate posters here…
I think you missed the context. My original comments were piosted in another thread in support of a poster who was getting lambasted for having sex with someone he had only recently met.
Yeah gobear I read the original thread, my example was only meant to be analogous insofar as anyone who says, “I blah blah blah blah, who hasn’t,” can sometimes inadvertantly put anyone who hasn’t on the defensive.
This attitude hurts a bit. I live in San Francisco. From the mid 70’s to mid 80’s most of my social group was gay. I have been to the bars, seen the glory holes, listened to friends talk about sex - both casual and otherwise. I learned about AIDS early, and knew at least one lovely man who died before they figured out what was killing him. I got tested early, when we still weren’t sure how it was being transmitted - I wasn’t having sex with my friends, but who knew? I helped friends talk through the fear and confusion, helped them find doctors who knew what to do, and helped several learn how to live with a virus that could become active at any time. I still consider the title fag hag to be one I am proud to wear, altho more in an advisory capacity these days.
I understand the frustration of hearing about AIDS all the time. I have had moments of feeling sad for those who never had the freedom I saw before it arrived. I can also understand the need to lash out. But it hurts me to think that you believe that no one who is not gay can understand. Some of us understand better than you know, and only refrain from commenting because we are afraid of being called clueless - or having to explain our qualifications. But please be assured, I do understand - and if I comment at all, it comes from my history. I wish you well.
Sassy, I sympathize with you, and I hope you understand my remarks applied only to the three posters I addressed by name. Certainly a hetero person can understand life in the gay community, but only by participating, as you did. The posters I addressed were trying to tell me about gay male behavior from the outside looking in.
Put it this way: I’d listen to criticism from Margaret Cho, but not from Laura Bush. Margaret lives with us and knows the deal; Laura doesn’t. (And if Laura were to preface her remarks by stating that her neightbor’s daughter is a lesbian, so Laura can speak from authority…ain’t enough eyes to roll.)
since I was one of three posters named by you (in post above I quoted, you named me, Poly & BBJ),
As I posted before, I never commented in any way about anyone’s sexuality, their choices, actions. I only commented on what I perceived as your rude behavior.
Now, if you’re referring to ‘three other posters’, well, here again, we have another case of you making a statement that isn’t entirely clear.
Wrong
Read Sassy[/]b’s post. Look at the three people I mentioned by name in the quote she cited :Anahita, Istara , and Tigergirl**: Now do I have to spell it out because you’re too lazy to look?
Oops, sorry. Too vague.
Do I have to be repeat each detail of each specific reference made by another poster to a comment I have made? If so–oops, sorry again–if the anwser to the previous question, " Do I have to be repeat each detail of each specific reference made by another poster to a comment I have made?" is “Yes,” we’re going to have some very long posts.
BTW, if it helps any I’m bisexual…and since I’m a bit marginalized with that I hang with gay men a lot. Sure there are a bunch of them that have had casual sex (not all of them are promiscuous–I see the difference) but more than a few are ALWAYS in a relationship before sex…it’s cute
But I’m not arguing with you… just pointing out that I don know a bit about this…
my last post to you was pretty polite, given the amount of crap you’ve thrown in my direction (see above referenced post where you went on and on directly to me, Poly and BBJ about how we’re not gay and shouldn’t comment on gay life etc. etc etc.). Something you still haven’t bothered retracting, I might add.
SO, the very last thing I think you should be doing is telling other people to ‘read the fucking post’.
Also, I was really offended by the whole, “You belong in a museum” comment. As if to say, someone who has never had casual sex, even once, is a curiosity, or an oddity. I don’t think you were implying that-but it still came off as such.
Well, I reread your comments in this thread, and to be fair, they consist solely of scoldings about clarity, exhortations to apologize, and general castigation , but no actual comments on gay life. So, yes, I retract my comments to you, Polycarp, and BottleBlond Jeaniein toto, unreservedly.
Ahem. I wrote, "Now do I have to spell it out because you’re too lazy to look? " NOT “read the fucking post.” For someone who complained so loudly about the parsing of my posts to put words in my mouth is just a bit hypocritical, is it not?
BottledBlondJeanie, thank you for the conciliatory post. I apologize for offending you.
Regardless of what went on in other threads or the (apparent) inconsistencies Gobear may have made in this thread, I would like to point out that he was called out, by name, in a pit rant. I think he has the right to be just a teensie bit defensive in his rebuttals.
Nope - he needs to take his lumps just like the rest of us.
gobear smells funny! (HA!)
And Guin, I may be your slut, but I hope you can share me with a certain someone… (And no, I’m not talking about matt_mcl, although I suppose I’ll need permission from him, too…)
