God doesn't seem very Godly to me

Spoiler alert, I’m an atheist.

At one time, when I was a child, I was taught about God, and ever since then my natural curiosity has led me to ask questions. Most of my questions couldn’t be answered by parents or religious preachers or any source I can find.

There are any number of flaws with the mythology, the Bible, the creation story, the ark, getting history and science and geography wrong, but really, ultimately, believing in Christianity or similar faiths ultimately boils down to do you believe in God or not?

Let’s say we humans got it wrong about everything else, but were correct about one thing, the universe was created by God.

That’s fine, I could almost buy that much. Especially if we assume he/she/it did this miracle and then went away, off to more interesting experiments. If that’s the case then all we’re talking about is someone who set things in motion and wrote the laws of physics. I don’t believe it but it’s much less repugnant than some of the other stuff people say about God.

Such a being is probably astoundingly intelligent. And so where I go off the railroad tracks is when religious people describe God to me.

God creates man, without a woman companion. However, he creates all sorts of animals, all of which have companions. He just plain forgot to give Adam one?

God takes one of Adam’s ribs to make Eve. Why? Couldn’t he just snap his fingers, or make her out of dust? Why the special hocus-pocus magic to make Eve?

God allows Adam to eat anything but this one special fruit. God also knows that Adam is a complete moron and will do anything Eve tells him to do, because she waxes his carrot. So, after Eve plays with his forbidden fruit, Adam does his characteristically moronic dumb thing and disobeys God.

But really, Eve does it because God also made an Evil, Talking, Snake whose main goal is to tempt Eve and Adam into doing stupid shit.

So, God designed incompetent boobs, and designed a test SPECIFICALLY for them to fail, which he knows they will fail, and when they fail, he curses them with pain and death FOREVER AND EVER!!!

Why not skip directly to that step? If we want to punish humanity for being innocent and stupid, why do we need the flimsy entrapment to begin with? Why not just design Adam and Eve to feel pain and eventually die? Punish them right from the start for things they had no control over anyway.

And why are we punishing them to begin with? If your baby child puts something in their mouth that you tell them not to put there, is the punishment SUFFERING AND DEATH?

Quite honestly, what sort of ***insane ***parent does that? First offense: You and all your progeny will feel horrendous pain, the stress of labor, and death forever and ever.

Oh, and since I went lenient on you for eating that apple, I’ve also designed this wonderful pit of eternal hellfire for you to suffer in horrible agony merely for not believing in me. Or for dying before getting to a preacher to confess your sins. Bad luck for the Native Americans, all hellbound before the spread of the word of Jesus, through no fault of their own. What a pity.

And we have Satan of course, whose purpose is to tempt and torment mankind while he watches, probably while touching himself, since he’s such a sadistic voyeuristic omnipotent superbeing.

The folks who believe in Demonic Possession- I really gotta wonder. You believe in a kind and loving God who also imagined and created the concept of Demons who can enter your body, torment you mentally, physically, and spiritually, even if you’re a good Christian who prays every day and wears a cross.

So my question is, why don’t Jewish folks and Muslims and Buddhists get possessed by demons? They obviously aren’t protected by the cross… duh. No holy water either. No exorcists, not a one. How come atheists don’t get possessed by demons?

How about ghosts haunting us? We believe in a kind and loving God who leaves people behind to torment the living while experiencing a kind of supernatural limbo where they can see and barely interact with the living world, but must suffer to walk the earth forever?

How come these ghosts always seem to come from the 1800 and 1900s? Why aren’t there any post 9/11 ghosts wandering around? How come we’re not haunted by Julius Caesar? Or cavemen? They weren’t particularly Christian fellers. Surely they’re cursed to walk the planet. Or someone from that era would be. Why aren’t there caves haunted by cavemen? How come castles aren’t haunted by the thousands of people who lived in them over the centuries?

Why does God come up with the laws of Judaism if he’s just planning on revoking most of them come Christ-time? What’s the deal with shellfish and menstruation and pigs?

Why does God send a series of contradictory prophets to tell his tale? Why couldn’t he just appear before all of mankind and go “Yup, I’m real, and the one true religion is blank

You see, the fact that countless people claim they’ve spoken with God all throughout history, once people started believing in just the one God instead of many or countless gods, kind of makes it hard for God’s real message to get through, assuming there is one. Just seems extremely illogical for an omnipotent superbeing to have to inform you of his existence by visiting only the man in tattered rags on the streetcorner who has no job and has been muttering to himself since he was twelve.

Not only that, but visiting dozens and dozens of these men, over the course of many different centuries, even millennia, to each give another piece of the story. Each piece of the story ever so slightly inconsistent with itself and other parts of the story. And once it’s all accepted as true, suddenly he sends another prophet or even his only son to clear it all up. But that’s not the end! Why, angels continue to visit and speak to Muhammed, and Joseph Smith! There’s *still more space dust *on the cover of this space cookbook: How to cook for forty humans.

It’s almost as if the people who visited before these new prophets had somehow gotten the story wrong.

How could that happen? Either the stories they told were pure fiction, and we should toss it all out, or God is batshit crazy and has multiple personalities and changes his mind every few years about what the ABSOLUTE RULES FOR HOW YOU MUST LIVE YOUR LIFE are, LEST YE BE JUDGED and sent to hell. If there is a hell.

And how about descriptions of heaven? Haven’t you heard of these descriptions before, don’t at least most of these descriptions include golden streets and pearly gates and all manner of precious metals and stones adorning everything?

Doesn’t that sound exactly like the feeble imagination of a mortal human being who is only familiar with the values of materials on planet Earth? A person trapped helplessly in an earth-centric economy? This isn’t Godly at all, it’s a poor person imagining that when they get to heaven, they will get to live like Donald Trump.

Why would God be fascinated with gold? It’s just one of the many elements he conjured up in his mind. No more interesting than the others. What do the pearly gates do? Keep out the demons?

Why not snap your fingers and slay every demon?

Why not snap your fingers and erase Satan from history?

Why have a pit of eternal hellfire? This sounds exactly like the kind of thinking done by people living in the dark ages to frighten others into belief. Believe in God or burn forever, because a burning death looks rather painful. That oughta scare em.

Notice how God is referred to as The Lord. And he expects tribute, tithes, he expects to be revered, and prayed to, and worshiped, and he loves you, but if you don’t love him back he’ll fry you in his dungeon of pain.

This isn’t a loving omnipotent superbeing. It’s the imagination of bronze aged people who live under a monarch or emperor or other dictator, who imagines that God must be a lot like a King.

The Kingdom of Heaven, where God sits atop a Golden Throne! Oh yes, because God needs a throne of solid gold to seem important-er than an Earthly King. And he wears a crown and has a chorus of angels of all sorts, some really bizarre in shape, not even remotely human, who sing his praises nonstop for all eternity.

These are the descriptions of God I hear from the faithful. None of it makes any sense.

Why is God so insecure he demands constant singing of praising his name nonstop forever?

What sort of hellish fate would it be to be forced to stand still and sing God’s name over and over forever? Why would hell be any different than that? Why would a sentient being want to do a single task for all eternity? Wouldn’t you go INSANE?

What’s the deal with the story of Job? Who cares how much Job loves God, if God on a whim decides to obliterate and slaughter his family just to prove a point to Satan? Why the hell does God care what Satan thinks of him?

How about I want you to sacrifice your son to me? That sound Godly to you?

It sounds rather barbaric to me. I want you to kill goats and burn them for me, just to remind me of how swell I am.

He doesn’t sound particularly moral, or selfless. In fact he seems a bit self-absorbed. You must always do exactly as he says or there will be extreme, painful, eternal consequences. If you question his existence, you’ll be punished forever. If you don’t believe in him, he’ll nail his son to a cross so you will. If you don’t believe in him after that, he’ll send angels to talk to another guy in the desert, who will conquer part of the world and spread the message of his love via the sword. Tough luck once again for the Native Americans who God seems to neglect terribly, until they lucked out and Spanish Conquistadors came to spread the merciful word of Jesus Christ, and not by a sword, but by gun this time. Woot!

I don’t get it. You’re told to pray, but obviously prayer doesn’t work. How many people have prayed for how many years for there to be world peace? An end to world hunger? An end to rape, or spousal abuse? How many victims of rapists and murderers prayed that God would save them? I imagine he ignored most of those prayers.

So why pray? He’s obviously going to do what he wants anyway. And it’s not as if you REALLY need to tell him (A) that you believe in him after you’ve dedicated your life to worship, and (B) you’d mind it terribly if that raving psychopath kept you in his basement for a year before torturing, killing, and eating you.

Shouldn’t God just sorta know that intuitively, and stop it from happening, if he were actually there, and gave a crap, and had any inkling to listen to prayers?

But it’s all part of the divine plan, that everyone has, God designed it.

So, that leads to Republican politicians telling is that when we’re viciously beaten within an inch of our lives and forcibly sodomized and raped by a sociopath, that was part of his awesomely inspirational divine plan, and that he wanted you to have that baby.

This is the kind and loving God. The one who designed the fruit you weren’t supposed to eat, and designed the snake that tempted you to eat it, designed the demons that possess people, designed the shellfish and unclean animals and the concept of menstruation, gave people homosexual feelings, then made all of these things something you’re not supposed to eat, touch, or give into. He also designed a nice little hell to torment you in. The guy who decided to commit genocide on humanity, and stuffed every animal in an Ark, just to be absurd. I imagine there were any number of innocent children left behind wondering why God wants to mass-kill children. I guess he got tired of looking at their smiling faces.

Oh, and bonus points if you’re captured, tormented, raped, killed, and eaten by a violent sociopath and you happen to not believe in God, because your fate is to be shipped directly to hell where God can do that sort of sadistic crap to you personally.

Nice guy. Really sweet fellow.

This is what the people who WORSHIP God say about him. One reason I’m an atheist I can’t believe anyone who would do these sorts of things is worthy of worship. I mean he’s like Hitler on steroids with magic powers and the ability to torment you even in death.

But he obviously cannot be omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent. I can’t actually attribute a whole lot of benevolence to such a deity, and I can’t imagine what the purpose of his repeated rule changes and flip-flops could possibly be, other than to intentionally harm humanity. Further his use of prophets who can only spread his word to a limited number of credulous followers is completely inefficient. Again, what about the Native Americans? What about the Japanese? What about the cavemen? How come they never got to meet Jesus? How come only people living in places where there’s no water and the sun bakes your brains have seen God?

Oh.

Nevermind…

Gee, when you say it like that, it sounds almost stupid.

Religion doesn’t make any sense logically which is why believers have an impossible task when they try to defend it on rational grounds. Why they bother, I don’t know. Belief depends on the irrational side of our nature which is why it’s so hard to convince believers that they’re wrong by using rational arguments. Why we bother, I don’t know.:smiley:

I wonder if somewhere out in the intersphere there is a similarly passionate theist contemplating whether he or she should spend the rest of their natural life composing a refutation of this post.

this is why i’m a deist.

it took me years to understand there is a middle ground of belief…and that the Judeo-Christian idea of God isn’t a held monopoly. they don’t have the end-all rights of defining God. they just attempt to wrangle some impossible concept.

that said, i have a hard time discussing that “i believe in god” without people thinking i am talking about the sky-beard-guy from the bible. my god-model is rather practical, tho it’s not my own.

frankly i just don’t know a better word than “god,” so i use it–to much dispute (which i sense is about to be flung at me by this board. i’ve never discussed this without being attacked before, so i accept it).

i’ll admit right now i can’t make a super strong **logical **case for belief in god. *i believe in something, because it just makes the most sense to me, because of how i grapple with reality. *

i don’t think i could build a compelling case to convince anyone else. luckily, i do not think that is necessary. i fully believe in adjusting what one thinks as evidence mounts, so my ideas are ever-evolving as i learn.

the thing that makes sense to me is that there is “something,” but whatever that “something” is cannot “love” us. there must be utter ambivalence for the system to work. so things like prayer baffle me, even tho i totally grew up desperately praying for things i desired.

maybe it helps. maybe it’s self-affirming…kind of like those goal-bulletin boards you create to visualize your dreams? i really don’t know. i do know i feel better when i meditate and really concentrate on…i dunno. cosmic communion or whatever. (tho i rarely actually do it anymore).

i do know that reality simply works and that so far nothing has happened for *no *reason.
that is a HUGE thing to me…that every cause has an effect and every effect has a cause. nothing is supernatural, and nothing defies explaining. at worse, we simply do not understand why yet. but there is always a why, and humans are on a fairly up-swinging trajectory of figuring out why things are.

before, it was magic and mysticism. we spun fictions to explain why things happened. then science slowly overtook the mystics and we began to advance. still, we learn more and more and make more and more sense of this reality.

so to that end, i do not believe whatever “God” is is actually impossibly supernatural.

now, i know–you cry “foul! it is not God if it is not supernatural!” but i really fail to think about it in those terms. there can be an underlying truth…a sort of reality glue that everything is based on, that all things require to exist, a reason, an energy, a singular “something” that underpins and created this reality. something we totally do not understand yet, but that makes everything work, and makes everything make sense.

something that religions all embarrassingly and woefully inadequately attempt to explain in illogical terms. something so far outside of that, so fundamental and so simple and perfect we will be astounded at the elegance of it all.

whatever that is, *if *it even is, i consider that God.

it doesn’t require worship, and it doesn’t care about me…because it can’t. because the cogs of the universe can’t have bias. and religion has the same awareness of this thing as science, but unlike science, religion asserts it has it all figured out…where science will keep on keeping on until it really *does *understand it.

and it’s not a guy, and he didn’t reveal truth to anyone ever, but it’s no less profound or meaningful, it’s just less…silly.

i’m acutely aware that this might be the rambling of a raise-christian simply being unable to let go of the god-concept. maybe i’m just an unwilling atheist. but i can imagine a universe with an uncaring creator-source and i can imagine one without it.

the first one makes a little more sense to me.
because i’m stupid.

I held similar beliefs to what you’ve described above a about four years ago. I’ve been everything from a fundamentalist Christian to an anti-theist (which is where I currently see myself), so I’ve definitely come to see deism as a transitional phase. We see that in history too. Before Darwin et al, deism was probably, generally about as far as you could get philosophically. This is why a lot our famous scientists in history were nominally christian/deist.

Nowadays there isn’t really anything left to explain. And any attempt to plug ‘gaps’ in scientific understanding is essentially an argument from ignorance.

There is nothing that was ever written, taught, read, or thought, that was not of a human’s doing.No one can say in truth they know anything about God. It is a matter of what one choses to believe.There are many different ways to think of a God. Hence so many different religions, and even the different ways in a oarticular religion. Christianity is the most divided of all.

Cause, mmmmmmmmm ribs!

God, I’ve got more ribs! Make more women!!

I agree with you. However, I’m going to play “devil’s advocate” (errr) here and defend the Judeo-Christian mythology just a bit…

He had already done the “out of dust” trick. He wanted to get a bit creative.

The point is that God created Adam and Eve with free will. What’s the point of creation if there is no free will? It’s like a computer program that just does the same thing over and over. Boring.
And he didn’t know that they would fail. They could have just done as he asked. It wasn’t a particularly difficult demand.

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You make some interesting points about ghosts. I don’t think that ghosts are a particularly Christian concept, so that seems like kind of an off-topic rant, but I never though about how ghosts are always from the ~ 17th and 18th centuries.

I THINK (and would like to have this confirmed or debunked by someone more knowledgable) that the term “Lord” came about because of the verse saying that God is the “king of kings and lord of lords” from a translation made in England where Lord is a title. In the US we don’t have the title “lord”, so that term came to be used exclusively for god, so much that that an American being introduced to a British lord would think the title blasphemous. I suspect that a US translation (I suppose I could just look that up, huh?) would be “king of kings and president of presidents”. But that’s just my WAG.

Well, these all seem to translate it essentially the same way: Revelation 19:16 And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

While part of 1Timothy 6:15 gets translated as “Potentate”, “Ruler”, “Sovereigh”, “Mighty One”, “Mighty”, the “King of kings, and Lord of lords” part doesn’t seem to vary.

And in Revelation 17:14 They will make war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will triumph over them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and He will be accompanied by His called and chosen and faithful ones." “Lord of lords, and King of kings” doesn’t seem to vary, although I do notice that “lord” comes before “king” in this verse, which indicates to me that the original Greek used 2 different terms, one that specifically meant “king” and the other that specifically meant … ?

Since I was a bit younger than I am, I’ve wondered too about all the stuff ascribed to God and come to the conclusion that it is only tiny human minds acribing their limited human understanding to God.

If there is an omnipotent God, then;

God doesn’t give a shit about whether you wear 2 kinds of fiber, or eat shellfish, or don’t work one day a week.
He doesn’t need you to constantly bow and scrape before him, this is a human ego manifestation and projection.
God doesn’t need sacrifices. He made everything, he is everything, he already has everything. Destroying part of your stuff in his name doesn’t make any sense except when considered as part of the HUMAN business of priests controlling the masses (which really has nothing to do with God).

The big 3 Monotheistic religions are really nothing more than trying to place a cultural and human face on something beyond us. Then stupid people get wrapped up in their cultural and foolish belief differences and kill each other over stupid shit they wrongly (but honestly and ardently) ascribed to God.

Which is why one of my personal quotes is;

The greatest sin is to cast your evil upon the face of God.
To ascribe to Him the darkness in your own heart.

I know an atheist who believes salt is a deadly poison and won’t eat anything he hasn’t prepared himself to avoid ingesting the evil substance. So if you take the whackiest beliefs of all theists and decide that’s what theism is about, then of course they’ll sound like idiots. Not all theists are fundamentalists, any more than all atheists are purely rational people.

But he doesn’t believe that because he is an atheist, so its completely orthogonal to belief in God.

My question to Theists is what difference does it make? If your view of a Diety is something that exists but makes absolutely no difference in how the world runs, then it might as well not exist. Is there some tangible phenomenon that you can point to that operates differently than the laws of physics and chance would predict?

I could say I believe that every night someone comes into my house and replaces everything with identical objects. You can not prove that does not happen, but why would anyone spend a moment of their life considering such an odd belief?

And if there is one deity, why not two? The second one created the first. Or maybe three, someone need to create the second one. No, wait, there are four…

TL;DR.
Your OP covers a lot of ground. If you wanted discussion about the things you posted, maybe you could narrow down the scope of the thread. For instance, you bring up Satan. We currently have a multi-page thread here in GD on “Why did God create Satan?” So if you really want a discussion of that…

I will say that, as a theist, some of the things you bring up don’t bother me at all: they can either be satisfyingly answered or just dismissed as irrelevant to the God I believe in. Others do bother me; they are good questions, and if I have an answer at all, it’s partial or speculative. But to believe in God, I don’t have to fully understand or know what the answer is to all the various objections people raise; I just have to believe that there is or could be an answer.

OP: Congratulations. You’ve discovered that the Fundamentalist Christian view of God is nonsensical. So have 3/4 of all Christians. That’s why they reject or have severely modified most of the ‘beliefs’ you rail against in your post. Your post is characteristic of, and useful as refutation of, only the most willfully ignorant branch of Christianity.

[quote=“Rucksinator, post:10, topic:643494”]

I agree with you. However, I’m going to play “devil’s advocate” (errr) here and defend the Judeo-Christian mythology just a bit…

The point is that God created Adam and Eve with free will. What’s the point of creation if there is no free will? It’s like a computer program that just does the same thing over and over. Boring.
And he didn’t know that they would fail. They could have just done as he asked. It wasn’t a particularly difficult demand.

Of course he knew they would fail, he is omniscient after all. At the instant of creation he knew everything that would ever be.

So what theistic belief isn’t wacky, ignoring that things believed in for thousands of years seem rational to some no matter how nutty they are. Assuming you are the Christian brand of theist, which parts of the Bible make sense and how do you determine this besides just belief and intuition? And while I’m sure you wouldn’t let your beliefs and intuition cause you to support laws limiting the freedom of others, plenty of religionists do just this. And not just fundamentalists, unless you call Catholics that.

Growing up Jewish, I find all the tenets of Christianity utterly absurd, and always have. But from my environment and Hebrew School I have to work at rationally rejecting the stories in the Bible I grew up with. I accept it, but the nonexistence of the Davidic Empire is a real bummer.

With respect…I dunno. I think that the question of the Christian Sacrifice also falls under the categories questioned in the OP. Why did God go to all the incredible bother and false drama of incarnation, sacrifice, resurrection, and so on… When he could simply have issued an edict.

An omnipotent God has no need for all of those shenanigans. Just decree it to be so.

It’s too ornate. Too complicated. Too messy.

And without the sacrifice and resurrection, what’s left is hardly Christian any longer. It becomes austere deism. It throws away the special pleading.

99% of the time someone declares that our puny human minds cannot know God, that same person will follow up on what God is really about.
Go figure.