Regarding the age issue it would really be best to teach transgendered stuff at an earlier age. You don’t suddenly start noticing the differences between boys and girls at age 13.
Okay, my quotes are in bold, Libertarian’s are in italics, and my responses are in plain text. This should be fun.
You know, it’s funny watching a libertarian defend censorship.
Let’s be clear here, if you don’t mind. Government ought to censor nothing except for coercion. But property owners ought to be free to censor whatever they please. So-called public schools are therefore obfuscatory with respect to such things as censorship. The shots are called by those with the most political clout.
So, we’re talking about current government, and according to your philosophy they should censor nothing except for coercion. Is this subject coercion? If not, how can you defend censoring it?
But having a guest speaker at the school could prevent a gay kid from being thrown out of his family.
How?
The speaker introduced the concept that there are resources in the community that can help gay youth. Those groups, if contacted, can provide a wealth of information on how to make the coming-out process as easy as possible, or, if necessary, how to make living in the closet bearable.
And could give them a resource to turn to for information about their sexuality, instead of having them believe the ignorance and bigorty they’re exposed to daily.
I thought the speaker was merely visiting. Do you mean he’ll be a permanent fixture?
No, the resource that he represented, and several others that help gay youth, are a permanent fixture in our city. The speaker made it known that there are resources that the kids could take advantage of, if they felt the need to do so.
And may prevent them from committing suicide.
A guest speaker? I think you’re minimizing the serious nature of what underlies a suicidal personality. A savvy quip from a visiting stranger seems an unlikely source of suicide prevention.
You have no idea how much it would have meant to me to hear that I wasn’t alone in dealing with my sexual identity back in junior high. A group of kids with the same issues would have been a godsend. Hearing one adult say that being gay was okay, that I was going to turn out fine even though I was gay, would have made a huge difference. And having that adult point out that there were people willing to help, well, that would have been mind-bogglingly wonderful.
There’s a difference between gay kids’ experiences at public schools, and straight kids’. And the difference is such that a staggeringly disproportionate number of gay kids are committing suicide. So, what information is so dangerous that it’s worth kids’ lives?
I think you’re confusing information with love.
And I think you’re confused.
I am the second one Polycarp. I am pro respect and tolerence for everyone.
There are several posters here who claim to believe the same thing but obviously only mean if you agree with them.
Then it would seem that an organization such as Wingspan, which is dedicated exclusively to focus on certain specific sexual behaviors and orientations, is not the best choice to teach the topic.
So all gays are worthy of respect, but only those parents who agree with the official, state-imposed attitudes on sexuality.
Really? What if they are gay parents? Do we respect them, or not?
I think the issue is often that the speakers who are recruited to teach tolerance for gays are basing their teachings on the belief that homosexuality is always morally acceptable. It is this belief that parents most often object to being taught. Tolerance of others different from yourself, in other words, is fine; whether or not homosexual behavior is OK or not should be taught by the parents.
OK, here is the scenario. You want to teach tolerance for diversity.
There are three sessions available to the students. One is taught by Wingspan, and stresses only that gay people should be treated with respect, because gay behavior and orientation is morally acceptable.
Another is taught by a local fundamentalist preacher. While admitting that homosexual behavior is always seriously sinful and wrong, he teaches that the best method to save the lost is to treat them with respect, and that violence against them or anyone else is an even more serious sin than gay sex. The primary focus of his talk is respect for others, even when they are wrong.
The last is a general session on respect for others, and makes no specific reference to sexuality of any kind. The general focus is that people who don’t do anything to hurt you are worthy of respect.
If our purpose is to teach tolerance for diversity, would there be any reason to choose one of these over the others? If you find one objectionable, would your objections apply to the rest?
Or perhaps the school could offer all three, and allow the parents to choose which their children would attend.
Or, perhaps, opt out altogether.
Regards,
Shodan
Er, yeah, but Homebrew named several classes where it would be relevant to discuss issues surrounding sexual orientation, and your response was that those classes weren’t manditory at your school, as though that meant that these issues are therefore not a legitimate part of the curriculum. Perhaps I misunderstand you.
If students are taking a health course that deals with human sexuality, or a current events course that addresses issues of gay rights or incidents of gay bashing or the like, would it be legitimate to discuss homosexuality, gender identity, and tolerance in those courses? (Assume that parents are notified, to avoid that aspect of the debate.)
MrVisible wrote:
What I am defending is parents censoring content for their children.
You mean counselors? Or what kind of help do you mean?
But you’ve turned out fine. And please believe me when I tell you that, as a straight kid in junior high, I had plenty of sexual issues of my own. I think that probably everybody does, except for the King Jock who scores with a different girl every weekend. And quite honestly, he likely has issues as well.
Growing up is just hard. Period.
But during that time, the authority over you ought to be your parents. You’re asking me to understand you, and indeed I have committed myself to defending you and other gays against bashing of any kind, physical or verbal. Some say that I’ve gone overboard a time or two. But I would now like to ask you to understand me: I want to make decisions on behalf of my children. I don’t want you to do it. I don’t want another libertarian to do it. And I damn sure don’t want Senator Fatcat to do it.
Can you understand that?
Okay, here’s one for all the people on the “I should have been asked! As a parent, I should consent to this. Of course I would have consented, but I want to be included!”
First off, let’s say it was about teen suicide. Would you insist on being consulted? If it was an anti-smoking presentation? An anti-drinking presentation? An anti-drink presentation? A version of A Midsummer Night’s Dream? A showing of Forrest Gump? A video of Anastasia? A regular class?
And here’s a couple of little vignettes, which I’d like to title “The Presentation of the Permission Slip, Scenarios I-IV”
Cast:
John…A thirteen year old boy, who is questioning his sexuality.
Dad…John’s father
Scene: The living room of their house, Thursday evening.
SCENARIO I
JOHN: Hi, Dad. How was work?
DAD: Great, son. Say, what’s that?
JOHN: It’s a permission slip. They’re having a presentation at the school about gay and lesbian issues.
DAD: Let me see that. Hey, that sounds neat!
JOHN: Yeah, can I go, Dad? I’ve kinda been looking at other guys in the showers after gym, and I’m wondering what it means.
Dad: Sure you can, son! Here, let me sign that for ya. Hey, what’s mom fixing for dinner? That smells good!
SCENARIO II
JOHN: Hi, Dad. How was work?
DAD: Great, Son. Say, what’s that?
JOHN: It’s a permission slip. Some dumb thing at school.
DAD: Let me see that. Gay and lesbian… Hmm. John, do you want to go to this thing?
JOHN: Nah. It’ll be dumb.
DAD: You know, son, that’s the kind of thing you should learn about at home. Hey, what’s mom fixing for dinner? That smells good!
SCENARIO III
JOHN: Hi, Dad. How was work?
DAD: Great, Son. Say, what’s that?
JOHN: It’s a permission slip. Some dumb thing at school.
DAD: Let me see that. Gay and lesbian… what the hell? They’re making you go to this thing?
JOHN: Nah, it’s just an assembly thing, we can go if we want to.
DAD: You want to go to this? This is for queers!
JOHN: No, I just thought you’d want to see it.
DAD: Damned right I want to see it. I’m going to call the school up right now. Who the hell do they think they are, teaching my son to be a pervert?
JOHN: Hey, what’s mom fixing for dinner? That smells good!
SCENARIO IV
JOHN: Hi, Dad. How was work?
DAD: Great, Son. Say, what’s that?
JOHN: Nothing. Hey, what’s mom fixing for dinner? That smells good!
Now, class, which of these scenarios is the most likely? Please keep in mind that a teenager who’s heard negative things about their own sexuality is likely to believe, sometimes correctly, that the acceptance of their parents depends on them concealing their sexual identity at all costs.
I never said ALL gays were worthy of respect. I am saying that being gay is not, ipso facto, a justification for DISRESPECT.
The state is not imposing attitudes on sexuality. It is imposing a code of conduct in its schools.
If a gay parent expresses bigoted attitudes, or encourages a child to express bigoted attitudes, then that parent does not deserve respect.
Public schools have no obligation to sanction the bigotry of parents. There are parents who object to “race mixing.” Does that mean that schools should respect this belief and not teach that racism is wrong.
[quote]
One is taught by Wingspan, and stresses only that gay people should be treated with respect, because gay behavior and orientation is morally acceptable.
Oh please :rolleyes: GMAFB. Can you show any kind of cite where Wingspan says that ONLY gay people should be respected. WTF are you talking about?
Well, I will continue to acknowledge your rights as a gay adult to make decisions about your life. I will appreciate it when you acknowledge my rights as a parent to make decisions about my children.
Lib, the help that these kids can get through these centers include a youth group, after-school tutoring and mentoring, a drop-in center that provides youth with a safe space to spend time in, and homeless youth services.
I may be fine now, but I tried suicide at 16. I came out at age 21, and knew very little about what it means to be gay until that point. I didn’t know another gay person until I was 20. All of this despite the fact that my mother, a single parent, is very gay-friendly, and has had numerous friends who were gay. She just never thought to talk to me about it, and I lived in fear, throughout my teenage years, of anyone finding out about my sexuality.
Children living in fear. That’s what the current status quo is producing, and what you’re defending. Yay you.
I’m not asking that anyone make any decisions for your children, or for you. I’m asking that children in an appropriate age group be allowed to get information from reliable sources about this issue, because the sources they’re currently being exposed to are inaccurate and insufficient, and for some of them having this information is literally a life or death matter.
Actually, what Shodan suggested seems to me more or less acceptable, since he is advocating diversity of views. As for that “only” I’m certain you misread him – Paraphrased, “The sole issue stressed in the Wingspan presentation is that gay people should be treated with respect, because gay behavior and orientation is morally acceptable.” He did not say that it stresses that only gays should be treated with respect, he said that it stresses only that gays should be treated with respect. Note the position of the “only” with respect to the “that” introducing the final clause in those two statements.
But, Shodan, where are you going to find enough fundamentalist ministers with that view to take those classes? I know a few laymen who take that stance, to be sure, but on this topic, the issue that will draw the crowds seems to be to preach about those sinful homos, to look at some of the publicity for services around here.
MrVisible wrote:
How dare you.
I’m defending what I said, which is that parent’s ought to have authority over their children. I won’t turn on you in kind and say that you are defending ripping children away from their parents to make them wards of the state. But I am very disappointed that you would pin on me some screed about defending children living in fear.
I tried suicide, too, but when I was 14. You do NOT have a lock on problems.
Read your last paragraph again MrVisible. You are asking to make the decisions for other people’s children, if you are still suggesting that they be taught about these issues in a classroom atmosphere without parental permission, which, correct me if I’m wrong, you seem to be implying.
Bottom line is, respect our rights as parents. Frankly, I find all this forcing the issue extremely arrogant. I guess “tolerance” only applies if one traverses a certain road. Sounds suspiciously fundie to me.
See, in this quote the position of the words is important. Go back, read it again. See how “only” is in front of “that”?
I believe Shodan was saying (and my apologies if I’m incorrect), that this group ONLY talks about gay people, and doesn’t say anything yea or nay about anyone else. IOW, gay people deserve respect. Not ONLY gay people deserve respect. Not all you STRAIGHT people should burn at the stake. Just, gay people deserve respect.
Nothing wrong with that in itself, of course. Read the rest of Shodan’s post.
Compare the three situations. They are all pushing respect for others. Shodan was illustrating how that can be accomplished in different ways.
And on preview, Polycarp has me bested. Oh well.
When I was teaching in public high school, I had between 100 and 150 students assigned to my classes. I do think that parents should have input on what children are exposed to, but to advocate contacting all of those parents on every presentation or discussion is totally unreasonable and impossible.
Some of my students’ parents would not want The Diary of Anne Frank taught because it isn’t Christian and teaches religious tolerance! (True story) Other parents would object to studying Huckleberry Finn because of the frequent use of the word “nigger.” Still others think that Richard Wright’s and Maya Angelou’s books are obscene. Just think of the controversy over Harry Potter books!!
Teachers simply CANNOT individualize lesson plans to that extent to suit 100 sets of parents. And what if a set of parents disagree?
My suggestion is that you require your child to tell you what was discussed in school that day. If it is something that you think needs addressing, then teach your child what you wish her or him to believe. Or possibly consider home schooling your children.
There is no harm in letting teachers know what you don’t want discussed and good teachers will do their best to see that your children aren’t exposed. But with that many students, there is no guarantee.
Someone commented on children who use the labels of fag and * motherfucker* and that using these labels doesn’t mean that the insulting person believes in the truth of those labels. Isn’t it sad that fag is considered an insult?
The teacher should have followed the appropriate rules for inviting guests. Also, I don’t think that that particular topic is age appropriate until puberty. But that is highly debatable. Teaching tolerance itself is always appropriate.
Does anyone know what subject the teacher was teaching – science, health, etc.?
Then you’d best rethink your position, because in defending the current way these things are taught in schools, that’s what you’re defending. And I dare because these kids need this help.
Not only did I read the paragraph, I wrote it. And I’m not implying that children be taught about these issues in a classroom atmosphere without parental permission, I’m demanding it. The kids that need this help the most will never, ever be able to ask their parents for permission to attend this sort of thing. Do you understand that? A gay kid with homophobic parents isn’t going to be able to ask. But that kid needs help, desperately. And you’re standing in the way.
It’s still not making decisions for you, or for your children. It’s exposing them to information about a subject. Whatever decisions you or your children make from there are up to you.
Meanwhile, your insistence that your ability to censor your children is paramount is helping children, including possibly your own children, get pressured into self-hatred and self-destruction. Is that a reasonable trade-off. I don’t think so.
The news at noon just came on. I’ll link to the text if and when it comes up, but it turns out that the teacher didn’t ask for permission from the school district. Which another teacher is quoted as saying isn’t normal procedure. Otherwise, the teacher followed all the normal school procedures in setting up this presentation. There’s just one board member trying to make political hay out of this.
Dammit, people. Kids are dying, and all you have to do to stop that is get out of the way and let the organizations that are out there trying to help them give them a little lecture.
You speak from utter ignorance. Nobody decides to be gay. And I, for one, began to realize I was gay when I was about 12, thus leading to over a decade of self-loathing, suffering, suicide attempts and all the other fun goodies that come with being a closeted-in-denial-gay-person in this “wonderful” country we call America.
A lecture like the ones given to those kids could have really, really helped me.
Kirk
Zoe, thanks.
The teacher was teaching a life skills course.
And apparently, according to the latest news out of KGUN9, he did follow the procedures laid out for him.
Sorry, parents, but this “I have the right to keep little Johnny from learning about X” is unadulterated bullshit. As noted, there are parents who don’t want their kids to learn about eeeee-volution, others don’t want their kids to know about slavery, still others don’t want their kids to read certain books that deal with racial issues. Tough.
I espeically can’t sympathize with the people who complain that teaching tolerance will contradict their parental teachings that homosexuals are disgusting vermin. God forbid your kid might learn that calling other people “fag” is wrong.
Who here has done this?