God, Gays, and Christianity

  1. Is there a God?

Possibly, but any God that exists would be indistiguishable from the “fabric of the universe” so it kind of a rhetorical question.

  1. Does such a God have opinions on human moral behavior?

Deist. I have other views. (see question 1)

  1. Is such a God identical to the historical God of Judaism and Christianity?

Well, I’ve never met a Christian who defines God as I do.

  1. Is the Bible as it stands an accurate record of such a God’s views?

There are many issues with the Bible. Translation issues, the delay in what Jesus said and getting his words on paper. The people factor (we like these books, but not these books). All these create problems with the accuracy of the Bible - unless you believe in some miracle, which I don’t.

  1. What does the Bible have to say about homosexuality?

I’ll leave that to others and a web search. I like religioustolerance.

  1. Is a “literal” reading of the passages answering question 5 an accurate representation of what God has to say?

Since I don’t think God does a whole lot of communicating with us verbally, no.

  1. To what extent is the Law of the Bible applicable to people today, Christian or not?

Jesus was perhaps the most influential philosopher to ever live. He has a lot of really wonderful ideas and says some insightful and important things. But his is one voice amongst many that people should consider when developing a personal (or societial) code of morals and ethics.

The Old Testiment should be respected as a historical code which a lot of Western law is based upon.

Paul was a nutjob. (To be fair, given his historical time and place, he probably wasn’t a nutjob, but his voice has lost any resonance for me 2000 years later. Great philosophers tend to speak truths that transcend time and place - Paul’s haven’t. Jesus’ have. Buddha’s have. Plato’s have.).

  1. What is the proper reaction of a Christian towards a gay person? Why is this the proper reaction? I see this one as the most critical question of the lot, given the attitudes presented in threads touching on the subject recently.

This is the one I don’t get. When someone I know does something I don’t approve of, I cut them from my life. A bunch of friends went for a long weekend, and one of our friends hit his girlfriend. None of us have spoken to him since.

I don’t get the “you do something I consider wrong, but since I love the sinner hate the sin, can you come to my BBQ?” Please note “do”, not “are”.

I would expect Christians who believe sex outside marriage is wrong, or gay sex is wrong to have great respect for celibates (gay or straight).

  1. Presuming the political power to do so, to what extent is a Christian required or permitted to impose his moral standards on those who hold different moral standards?

You shouldn’t legislate morals. If your only justification for legislating something is “its icky” or “God doesn’t like it” then there is no reason for a law.

Shodan, religioustolerance.org has compiled some sources about the attitudes of various world religions about homosexuality. Here’s a sample.

All quotes are from links onthis page. A very worthwhile read.

At Mr Visible’s request, my responses to the questions I posed in the OP:

1. Is there a God?

Absolutely. I recognize that for many people there is inadequate evidence to convince them of His existence, and that much of human nature conduces to the assumption that belief in Him is based on superstitious grounds – but from personal experience and intelligent analysis of the historical evidence, I am firmly convinced that He does exist and loves human beings.

**2. Does such a God have opinions on human moral behavior? **

He sure does. However, don’t jump to conclusions on what His opinions are or how He expresses them.

3. Is such a God identical to the historical God of Judaism and Christianity?

Effectively, yes. However, large portions of the historical understanding are based on credulous acceptance of the historical accounts, which may not be totally accurate or unbiased. (E.g., compare a secular history of the Middle East in the last 1200 years BC with the Scriptural account, and you see the latter presupposing a much larger part in the events of the time. I refer to this as “the Jacob Brown effect” after the famous War of 1812 general – famous, that is, if you were born and raised within 10 miles of his home town, as I was.)

4. Is the Bible as it stands an accurate record of such a God’s views?

Absolutely not. It approximates them and they can be inferred from it, but only by critical reading – because the human authors colored and flavored the contents with their own views. Contemplate the exchanges between, e.g., Jodi and His4Ever in numerous current threads to see that in contemporary terms; for one classic Bible example, look at the legislation in Ezra and Nehemiah on miscegenation of Jewish men with foreign women, and then at the Book of Ruth, where the eponymous character is a positively portrayed foreign woman who is the ancestress of the ultimate Good Jewish Leader, King David. (It’s also intriguing that although Naomi is Ruth’s mother-in-law from her first marriage, the woman who is her mother-in-law from her second is none other than Rahab the Harlot of Jericho, from back in Joshua – check it out in a genealogy of David.)

So no, a Bible passage taken at random will not give an accurate record of what God expects of humanity, but rather of what the particular writer of that passage has focused on.

**5. What does the Bible have to say about homosexuality? **

(a) Prohibitions on gay male sex appear in the Holiness Code in Leviticus, (b) there is the passage in Romans 1, and both © Paul and Jude appear to make passing references to “homosexuals” as beyond the reach of salvation.

**6. Is a “literal” reading of the passages answering question 5 an accurate representation of what God has to say? **

Let’s address those three areas separately.

(a) The prohibition in Leviticus is, presumably, valid as God’s will for Jews and for those who are “God-fearers” – people who, not converting to Judaism, believe in the God of Moses according to Jewish understanding of Him.

However, Paul is explicit on the idea that Christians are free of the Law – that their task is to live moral lives in accordance with Christ’s principles as outlined in His summary of the Law. That includes all the Law, not a pick-and-choose selection. At most, the Jewish Law is to be used for guidance in what a moral life based on Christ’s principles ought to entail.

Second, it’s important to note that the chapter in which the prohbition is housed is targeted to lust. And in the Christian understanding of the term, as opposed to some of the dictionary definitions, lust is not synonymous to sexual desire, but rather the sin of gratifying sexual desire at the cost of others. (To get the usual hijack out of the way, a pedophile is driven by lust, along with a sense of power over a child – he is gratifying his own sexual urge at the expense of the child’s well-being. Two adults may be driven by lust or by a mutual desire within a context of a committed relationship, as anyone who has ever fallen in romantic love is clear that the purpose of sex is supposed to be anyway.)

Finally, it’s important to recognize that the Hebrew word translated “abomination” does not mean that, but rather “offense causing ostracism from the community.”

(b) A careful reading of the passage in Romans 1 makes it quite clear that a transformation of a heterosexual desire to a homosexual one is God’s punishment, in the nature of a shock treatment, on those who reject Him to focus on worldly things. I read in this the sense of ennui, of “kicks that keep gettin’ harder to find,” often found among those with the resources to fulfill their earthly needs and wants but no sense of purpose and spiritual fulfillment, and see in it the “gay chic” ideas of the First Century and of the Jet Set of 20 years ago, when it was “in” to be bisexual. It is clearly not a description of the typical gay person such as andygirl who did not choose to be gay but discovered it about himself or herself.

© There are some strong arguments which I do not want to get into regarding what precisely the words Paul and Jude used actually mean. It’s not beyond the realm of probability that they are in fact mistranslated.

**7. To what extent is the Law of the Bible applicable to people today, Christian or not? **

It ain’t, except to Orthodox and Conservative Jews by virtue of their religious belief. See my second paragraph under the answer to (6a) above.

**8. What is the proper reaction of a Christian towards a gay person? Why is this the proper reaction? **

The proper reaction of a Christian towards any human being, gay or not, is to follow Christ’s commands – to love him or her as you do yourself, to refrain from sitting in judgment over him or her, to endeavor to lead that person to Christ by the example of one’s words and deeds, and to show the respect and compassion towards that person that one would want reciprocated towards oneself. Finally, as God was gracious enough to call me to Him and allow me to make the decision to turn to Him, I need to respect others’ freedom to choose to respond or not respond to His call and my efforts to express that call to them, and to choose what he or she will do as a moral person in the interim.

**9. Presuming the political power to do so, to what extent is a Christian required or permitted to impose his moral standards on those who hold different moral standards? **

My view here probably differs from everybody else whatsoever. I believe that the standards I outlined in (8) – other than the calling to conversion – are absolute moral standards which all decent people ought to follow. So yes, I think that behavior ought to be somehow enforced.

As for laws restraining personal freedom based on selective reading of Biblical statutes, such as laws restricting marriage to one man and one woman, making it legal to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation (or any other irrational factor), making consensual sexual conduct illegal, and so on, I think that no good Christian has any place trying to mandate those laws on anyone else, regardless of what his or her own personal moral standards with regard to that behavior might be, on the basis of the strict commands of Jesus Himself on how His followers ought to behave towards others.

MrVisible -

Thanks. I will see if I can get cites from the various sacred writings from there.

Regards,
Shodan

As with other posters, it’s the hypocrisy that really irks me. I know someone who is a minister in a denomination that refuses to ordain gays or even women. Yet, this person himself is divorced and remarried. Remarriage is condemned in the NT at least as strongly as homosexuality or women speaking in church. What kind of sense does this make?

Poly-

You think it should be illegal to hate anyone?! What a load that would put on our strained courts!

So, for the record, I am currently on the fence about the “is there a god?” issue. My current leanings are pretty atheist at the moment, although skeptic may be a better way to describe me.

That said, I have done a fair share of reading of both the Old and the New Testament and feel somewhat qualified to comment.

It has been pointed out before that the Bible is filled with contradictions, as well as many other items that are ignored as no longer relevant. And yet, we keep coming back to Leviticus and the prohibition of homosexuality.

What it comes down to for me is that the Bible has many stories in it that resonate with me, and nurture me. Those I pay attention to. The thought of God coming to the world as a helpless baby that we must protect, Moses leading his people from bondage, the flood. These are stories that I think can have a positive message and are somewhat relevant today. Leviticus law, however, is not, and I think that even the biblical literalists will admit (if they think about it) that they do not come even close to obeying all of the edicts in that book. To name a few:

[ul]
[li] No disabled of funny looking people allowed to come near an alter of God (Leviticus 21:17-21)[/li][li]When farming, only monocultures allowed (Leviticus 19:19)[/li][li]No sleeping with a menstruating woman (no pain of banishment) (Leviticus 20:18)[/li][/ul]
Mind you, this is just a short, shooting from the hip list. One could go on. The overall point, I guess, is that the Bible is filled with items that are no longer at all culturally relevant and that all of us choose to ignore. I would argue that the edict against homosexuality is one of those things, and that what we are seeing here is fear of change.

Polycarp: my reaction to the tail end of your post is largely in-line with FriendRob’s, I think. Namely–how in the world do you enforce or legislate love and compassion? Or not sitting in judgment?

OP-wise:

1: Is there a God? Yes, but the question as usually formulated is troublesome, mostly the “there” implication. “There” implies a difference between a there and a here, immediately sets up things where the sacred is not. There’s a fairly well-known Zen Buddhist story, of a man who walked into a temple during recitals of sutras, walked up to the altar, and spat on it.

Needless to say, this caused some…strong feelings. When the man was demanded to give an account of his actions, he replied, “Show me a place where the Buddha is not, and I’ll spit there instead.”

2: Does such a God have opinions on human moral behavior? When formulated as a being, probably so.

**3: Is such a God identical to the historical God of Judaism and Christianity? ** “The” historical God? Heh. Which one of the thes? But identical, no. No more so than the trunk of the elephant that the first blind man grabs hold of is identical to the elephant.

**4: Is the Bible as it stands an accurate record of such a God’s views? ** It’s a record of the views of the people who wrote it, rewrote it, and translated it, and so naturally veers from beautiful poetic images to plain good sense to grotesque evil savagery and back again. Literal, it ain’t.

5. What does the Bible have to say about homosexuality? Already well-covered. It doesn’t speak highly of it.

6: Is a “literal” reading of the passages answering question 5 an accurate representation of what God has to say? It’s a good representation of what the author(s) of Leviticus and a few NT authors (perhaps the historical Paul and perhaps not) have to say. Why is literal in quotes?

**7. To what extent is the Law of the Bible applicable to people today, Christian or not? ** It isn’t, unless individuals choose it to be.

**8. What is the proper reaction of a Christian towards a gay person? Why is this the proper reaction? ** That sort of depends on the Christian. How one chooses to may or may not demonstrate how good or bad (or true scottish) a given Christian may be–it definitely demonstrates how worthwhile of a human being they are. Worthwhile human beings strive to treat other human beings with compassion, respect, and love–what religious label they’re emotionally vested in wearing is a side-issue, and ultimately not at all important.

9. Presuming the political power to do so, to what extent is a Christian required or permitted to impose his moral standards on those who hold different moral standards? You mean laws and such. It seems to me that laws and legislation are Caesar’s. If moral standards are God’s, it’s interesting how much some Christians want to render those to Caesar.

Yes, there is a God, and yes He cares about the actions of His children. I am Catholic and believe that any extra-marital sex (fornication/adultery) is immoral. I believe that people do not choose their sexual orientation but can choose behavior. I also believe that everyone is struggling to do the best they can in life and it’s not up to me to make any judgments. Given that, I will express my beliefs only when asked. No matter what I believe, it’s worse to oppress someone else with that viewpoint. I also do my best to live up to these tenets myself.

#9 is the tough one for me. I know that technically only Catholics are responsible to follow the tenets of the Catholic Church so that matters of legality for the general population are somehow separate from moral code. And yet, my political views (pro-life in any application) are based on my moral and religious beliefs. I don’t really have an opinion on civil unions, for example, because it’s an earthly law not taking place within a church. And I would never protest against gay rights, etc., because it is a secular issue. But somehow I feel unsettled about where moral and legal codes intersect or overlap. Still an open question for me.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

It’s a sin.

Yes, it’s condemned in both old and new testaments.

All moral law is still applicable for today, laws concerning ceremony or eating certain foods, ways to wash things, etc. are no longer applicable.

The attitude of a Christian toward gays should be not to condone any type of physical violence toward them and to share the truth with them in a loving manner. To treat them as they would any other person and yet not to condone what they’e doing. True love tells the truth even if it’s unpopular.

Christians should vote on these matters according to what they know (believe) to be right and wrong. Most probably wouldn’t, in good conscience, vote to legalize something they believe to be wrong.

I’ve only come to GD to answer these questions as I saw an invitation to do so from Polycarp in one of the threads in the Pit.

—I am Catholic and believe that any extra-marital sex (fornication/adultery) is immoral.—

Why? What makes it immoral?

This is an interesting point, and one on which I would like clarification.

First of all, is this stated somewhere in the New testament and I am just not remembering it? I am guessing that this is the case, but that I must have missed it.

Second, and probably most important, who gets to decide what is moral law? As I see it, from a reading of Leviticus, all of the laws that were put forth were presented as moral law? I can see that not eating shellfish (for example) could now be seen as something that is fine, but I am wondering where the line is.

For example, most Christians continue to see adultery and prostitution as immoral. We are told to banish, burn or stone folks that engage in this behavior in the oft-quoted Leviticus.

So fine, we don’t tend to go around burning people to death anymore. This indicates that we are willing to see the laws in that book as something open for interpretation. Also, because we are distinguishing between moral law and other law in that book, we are stating that (remember that all of this was the word of the LORD supposedly) morality is a concept that can and will evolve. That said, is there no room in your philosophy (generalized you, aimed at the homosexuality is a sin crowd) to consider that perhaps two people loving each other (no matter the gender) is never a bad thing?

Oy, is this a can of worms. I suspect the question stems from a notion that sex is a basic good, necessary for human reproduction, and hey, it feels great, so why is this marriage thing necessary? Surely rape and, arguably, sex based on “using” the other person as an instrument to pleasure are wrongful, but what about when it’s two loving, consenting adults? Am I right so far?

I suppose the short of it comes from the RCC’s status of Marriage as a sacrament, not just a social institution. (A sacrament is, in short, a physical act that has permanent spiritual effect. There’s a permanent change involved that binds one to God. I.e., at Baptism, you become a Christian. You can’t be “unbaptized” even if you reject the church later and permanently.) Marriage is considered the same way: the spouses are permanently bound together, and there’s something sacred about what they can do that unmarried couples can’t. I’d recommend this link for more explicit details. The point is that marriage is taken to be a similar, permanent bond: just as God is meant to be bound to his faithful, signified in baptism, so are a man and a woman supposed to be bound to each other in marriage.

OK, so skip down to section 1646 of that link, which talks about “conjugal love.” (That’s the churchy term for sex, folks.) It talks about how conjugality requires the permanence of fidelity, and that should be pretty obvious from the degree of bonding that occurs (or at least, should occur) in the sexual act. By its nature, that kind of bonding can’t occur in sex between unmarried partners: since they’re unmarried, they are literally at liberty to leave one another since that marriage covenant doesn’t exist between them. Married couples are not permitted to divorce, although separation is permissible in cases of abuse (and even then, the couple is still married unless an annullment can be declared, meaning the marriage simply never happened). Of course, I don’t mean to describe the marital relationship as a noose around the partners’ necks, so much as the firm grip of two people who don’t want to let go of one another.

Point is, that presumption of “using” one another disappears with the marital bond. Which is not to say it doesn’t happen: there’s something really wrong happening when a husband sees his wife primarily as a sex toy, or vice versa. Anyway, I really recommend clicking on that link and trying to parse through some of the language as best you can. The key, I think, is to analogize the husband-wife relationship to that of the intended relationship between man and God.

…I’m gonna get a zillion questions shot at me after this. C’est la vie!

Oy, is this a can of worms. I suspect the question stems from a notion that sex is a basic good, necessary for human reproduction, and hey, it feels great, so why is this marriage thing necessary? Surely rape and, arguably, sex based on “using” the other person as an instrument to pleasure are wrongful, but what about when it’s two loving, consenting adults? Am I right so far?

I suppose the short of it comes from the RCC’s status of Marriage as a sacrament, not just a social institution. (A sacrament is, in short, a physical act that has permanent spiritual effect. There’s a permanent change involved that binds one to God. I.e., at Baptism, you become a Christian. You can’t be “unbaptized” even if you reject the church later and permanently.) Marriage is considered the same way: the spouses are permanently bound together, and there’s something sacred about what they can do that unmarried couples can’t. I’d recommend this link for more explicit details. The point is that marriage is taken to be a similar, permanent bond: just as God is meant to be bound to his faithful, signified in baptism, so are a man and a woman supposed to be bound to each other in marriage.

OK, so skip down to section 1646 of that link, which talks about “conjugal love.” (That’s the churchy term for sex, folks.) It talks about how conjugality requires the permanence of fidelity, and that should be pretty obvious from the degree of bonding that occurs (or at least, should occur) in the sexual act. By its nature, that kind of bonding can’t occur in sex between unmarried partners: since they’re unmarried, they are literally at liberty to leave one another since that marriage covenant doesn’t exist between them. Married couples are not permitted to divorce, although separation is permissible in cases of abuse (and even then, the couple is still married unless an annullment can be declared, meaning the marriage simply never happened). Of course, I don’t mean to describe the marital relationship as a noose around the partners’ necks, so much as the firm grip of two people who don’t want to let go of one another.

Point is, that presumption of “using” one another disappears with the marital bond. Which is not to say it doesn’t happen: there’s something really wrong happening when a husband sees his wife primarily as a sex toy, or vice versa. Anyway, I really recommend clicking on that link and trying to parse through some of the language as best you can. The key, I think, is to analogize the husband-wife relationship to that of the intended relationship between man and God.

…I’m gonna get a zillion questions shot at me after this. C’est la vie!

Polycarp, I hope you can forgive me for not answering your questions point by point, but I think I can be more succinct.

I believe in God.

I believe that God does take an interest in all of his creation, and that He will make his Judgement, and is in fact monitoring us for that purpose. I also believe that there is more at stake than just personal salvation. The fitness of our species as a whole is also in question.

I further believe that Judgement is His job, not mine. That said, I can not conceive of a God who would condemn people to eternal damnation for actions which are fundamentally harmless.

I believe that the Ten Commandments are pretty obvious and not all that hard to follow, and that “love thy neighbor” shouldn’t be all that tough either.

I beleive the following*:
[ul]God could only be angry with people who are willfully in error.

Those who plant truck bombs outside of office buildings in Oklahoma City to kill children are willfully in error.

Those who fly airplanes into buildings to kill thousands in the name of God are willfully in error.

Those who randomly enter public places to shoot unarmed innocents in the name of God or Justice are willfully in error.

This list will get really large if I don’t quit now.[/ul]

Only a total idiot would place homosexuals in the same category.

Those who choose to interpret the many-times translated writings of bronze-age desert nomads as the One True Word of God, and thereby persecute others, are not willfully in error.

They are simply pig-ignorant, and possibly guilty of a sin of pride (for stating that they know the mind of God).

*[sub]In this, I may be as mindlessly judgemental as the likes of His4ever.[/sub]

Yes, in the sense that humans are created as (bi-, homo-, hetero-, whatever) sexual beings, how could there be an error in their existing as such? But if you are a member of a religion that proscribes (any kind of) sex outside of marriage, practicing these acts is an error. I know what you are saying; sex doesn’t hurt anybody and it feels great, and of course it is not destructive of human life, etc. But as Res so eloquently put it above, it is to be honored in the sacrament of marriage within Catholicism.

That being said, I don’t have time to be judging the single straight Catholics who I know are sexually active, let alone any one else. (I bear witness to what I believe is right for Catholics when asked but that’s it.)

I was under the impression that this was a poll Polycarp was taking to find out people’s opinions on these numbered questions. I don’t know that I can answer or explain myself to your satisfaction. I haven’t had much luck so far. Anyway, there’s no specific statement anywhere that I know of telling us which laws are still valid and which aren’t. I feel that it’s kind of common sense. If adultery was wrong in the old testament, it certainly should still be wrong today. I believe the Lord is more concerned with our hearts and moral conduct, than with what kind of fabric we’re wearing. Of course, His greatest desire is that we know Jesus as our Saviour. You say that morality is a concept that will evolve? I don’t think I can agree with that. God decides what is right and wrong, not us. We can’t decide something is right just because of the number of people doing it. If He says it’s wrong, it’s still wrong. As I said in another post somewhere I believe, the number of people participating in something doesn’t determine it’s rightness or wrongness. Does God really need to spell out every little jot and tittle for us in writing? How many books would that take? If God says something is wrong in both old and new testament in more that one place, who are we to say that it isn’t? I can’t say that homosexuality is a good thing when God says it’s wrong. The Bible, of course, is a demanding book and sometimes hard to understand. We need to know it’s Author. I don’t understand all of it or have all the answers to everything but on the subject everyone has been rehashing over and over, IMHO it’s very clear. Hope this clarifies a little for you.

Not so much a poll, though that’s how people have been treating it, as an attempt to gather in one place the different arguments raised on the subject and get them flowing sequentially. (E.g., if you assume that a given English translation of the Bible accurately reflects what God demands on a given issue, and somebody else is skeptical of what the Hebrew words meant or whether this was in fact God but rather the human author’s POV, and disputes your claim without giving the background of what is perspective is, we end up arguing without making clear what it is we’re differing about.)

How sure are you that you really understand the bits you say you do understand?
Could you be wrong?
Is it concievable that the Bible is actually impossible to ‘understand’ (that is, impossible if you insist on treating it as a coherent single document)?

I happened to come across this Letter to ‘Dr. Laura’ while looking around over at Religious Tolerance. The author is asking Dr. Laura’s advice on how best to follow Biblical Law in modern times - and since the opening paragraph is essentially a restatement of the arguments made here by several posters - “When people try to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.” - the remainder of the letter is a little scary, even though clearly written tongue-in-cheek.