God, Gays, and Christianity

With respect to the existence and views of God (q1&q2), I believe His concern for us can be likened to that of a parent for a beloved child on the verge of adulthood. Does that parent have opinions on the moral behavior of his or her child? Of course; but the parent elects not to interfere with the choices of the near-adult, because the parent realizes that at this point the loved one must begin taking responsibility for his or her own decisions. If a parent lets a child fall, does that signify a lack of caring, or acceptance of the importance of hard lessons. I believe the latter.

WRT the nature of God (q3&q4), descriptions of the Abrahamic God (Jewish, Christian, Muslim) certainly present some aspects of God. However, all attempts to portray Him are limited to concepts that we humans can understand. I believe that His nature is such that it is not only beyond description, it is beyond any possibility for our comprehension. So no characterization is going to be accurate.

WRT to the applicability of God’s laws and their relationship to secular politics (q5 thru q9), I think my views are contained in what follows.

Ceremonial Law has been dismissed as a means of Salvation. But that does not mean that it has no value as a guide for daily living and for informing one’s beliefs about right and wrong. Therefore, it would not be improper to continue following the Ceremonial Laws as long as they are kept in the proper perspective – a good way to live, but not the way to be saved.

In that light, it would still be proper to abstain from eating the unclean foods, to abstain from sexual intercourse in all of the proscribed forms (including during menstruation), and to live temperately. Portions of this must, of necessity, be modified due to the need to obey the laws of the land in which we live. (The United States is not a theocracy as was Ancient Israel, after all. We are not even an officially Christian country, although we are a religiously tolerant country. At least we are supposed to be, in my view.) Thus, it is not possible to stone to death those who violate certain points of the Deuteronomic Law, even if living in a closed community of believers (as with the Amish). But those members of ‘communities of believers’ unwilling to abide by the standards of their chosen community can and should be excluded from that community.

I believe that God had some reason for asking Ancient Israel to follow the precepts given. Some of the reasons can be guessed. For example, the people of that era had no conception of bacteria, fly-borne diseases, and various other microbes; they also had little by way of sanitization and refrigeration. So it was to their advantage that God gave them dietary laws which minimized their risk of food-related illnesses. As another example, while it is proper to regularly appear before God in a formal setting like a church service, and while it is not a sin for a married couple to have sex, God has stated that we shouldn’t present ourselves to our spouses AND present ourselves to Him on the same day; hence the law of ceremonial uncleanliness after sex. (Being ceremonially unclean should not be thought of as a sinful state; merely a condition of unsuitability for formal presentation to God.) Other of His laws and precepts are not so easily understood or guessed. But I’m comfortable with accepting that He had SOME purpose in giving those laws, whether or not I understand, and so I had best heed them.
I don’t expect others to hold the same views I do, and so don’t expect them to practice what I do. I won’t try to tell you to do what I’m doing, and I hope you won’t tell me to do what you’re doing. All must make their own choices, and accept whatever consequences arise from them.

Each individual is responsible to God for his or her response to the prompting of the Holy Spirit upon the heart. That, I believe, will be the standard of judgment. If I believe one thing to be wrong and another thing to be right, then I will be held accountable for following those beliefs. If someone else does not have the same convictions on those matters, they will not be held to account for them in the same way.

One may be tempted to ask at this point, “What of the crazy person who believes killing is ok?” To that my response is that this particular person is not following what the Holy Spirit is telling him. Because I don’t believe that the Holy Spirit is inconsistent in what He prompts people to do; only our responses to Him are inconsistent.

What is more, I will be held accountable for what the Holy Spirit has told me, not what others have said which I know clearly contradict God’s teaching. So when I’m standing before God being asked to give an account of my actions, it will not be sufficient to say (in a whiny voice), “But everyone else said it was ok!” Neither your local minister, nor the President of the United States, nor even the head of the largest religion in the world can excuse you from what you know to be God’s requirements.

My reaction to other human beings, regardless of any similarities or differences between their beliefs and my beliefs, should be one of respect and concern. However, I must be cognizant of any effect their beliefs and actions may have on my convictions, and govern my contact accordingly. As you may recognize, enough exposure to any condition will begin to affect the onlooker. For example, if I am exposed to enough murder and carnage, I will eventually become jaded and find it less shocking than at first. Likewise, the strength or weakness of my faith will regulate the extent of my contact with those of differing beliefs. (Herein lies the source of so many Christians’ reluctance to associate with “sinners”; they’re afraid that they may succumb to the temptation to do what the sinner is doing.) I just need to be secure in my faith, then I won’t fear to come into contact with the convictions of others.

The extent to which religious laws influence political laws is, and should be, relatively limited in this country (U.S.) due to the Constitutional mandate for separation of church and state. However, like so many points, this too is the subject of much debate and political wrangling. My view is that public laws should not try to dictate religious morality. Those who hold religious views should follow their beliefs voluntarily, not because they’ve been legislated; neither should they try to impose their views on others. Force is not the way of the God they profess to follow (this is true for the God of all three Abrahamic faiths, as well as many others). God allows people to choose to believe or not believe, to follow or not follow, as they individually desire. Forced worship is meaningless!

**Polycarp wrote:

  1. Is such a God identical to the historical God of Judaism and Christianity? Assume this for purposes of this thread. Freyr, I love you, but please don’t hijack this into a debate on whose god says what. **

To hear it to obey, oh wise one! Btw, doesn’t that crown of thorns give you a headache? :wink:

I love you, too! I hope, someday, you’ll grace my dwelling space with your presence!

A question for those who say “This part of the Bible applies to us today, while this part does not”: According to my copy of the Bible, in Matthew 5:18 Jesus says:

It seems to me that Jesus is saying that even the most inconsequential-seeming rules laid down in the Old Testament may not be discarded or ignored until the events of Revelations come to pass. How do you reconcile your ‘pick and choose’ method of following God’s laws with Jesus’s words above?

You paying attention, Apos? Follow the logic here: It’s just common sense that biblical proscriptions regarding diet and dress are irrelevant in today’s society. Implying, of course, that it’s just common sense that condemnation of homosexuality is not irrelevant. His4ever has just restated the concept that I was taken to task for suggesting: that she picks and chooses from the Bible to support her preexisting prejudices. I have to view the above quote as the long sought smoking gun: H4E has just admitted that it’s her own prejudices—i.e. common sense—that informs her narrow interpretation of Scripture. So again I say:*** Pseudochristians*** (defined as people who hearken only to those parts of Scripture that they like—that present no challenge to their easy, lazy, self-centered view of Christianity—while turning a blind eye to those parts of Scripture that challenge their prejudices and require self examination) don’t hate homosexuals because God says so; they say “God says so!” because they hate gays.

Um, isn’t it your position that he has?

Cite? Old and New please; more than one each.

1. Is there a God?[ul]There is if you believe in one. I believe each of us creates our own god; god is the way we understand the universe. If you believe in god, then you live in a universe where there is a god. If you don’t believe in god, then you live in a universe without one. I find much wonder and mystery in the universe, but I don’t name that mystery god. I may call it nature, or I may use the word god as a metaphor for nature or mystery,, but it doesn’t work for me to anthropomorphize that mystery as a being; as a consciousness unto itself. I can be in awe of the mystery—I can even worship it, in a way; I can certainly celebrate it—without thinking of it as god.[/ul]
2. Does such a God have opinions on human moral behavior?[ul]No.[/ul]
3. Is such a God identical to the historical God of Judaism and Christianity?[ul]No.[/ul]
4. Is the Bible as it stands an accurate record of such a God’s views?[ul]No.[/ul]
5. What does the Bible have to say about homosexuality?[ul]I cannot quote verbatim, and am not interested in expending too much energy on tracking it down. What I’ve learned (here, as well as other places) is that what it does say is suspect by its (historical as well as textual) context, and is certainly open to interpretation. I also understand (correct me, with cites, if I’m wrong) that the central text of Christianity, the New Testament, has very little to say about it at all, and nothing definitive. [/ul]
6. Is a “literal” reading of the passages answering question 5 an accurate representation of what God has to say?[ul]Within my belief system, obviously not. But even within the Christian belief system, because of the vagaries and variables introduced to the text by history and translation, I’d say no.[/ul]
7. To what extent is the Law of the Bible applicable to people today, Christian or not?[ul]To the extent that each individual chooses the Bible as a source of personal inspiration and guidance.[/ul]
8. What is the proper reaction of a Christian towards a gay person? Why is this the proper reaction?[ul]Within my system of belief, basic human decency. Within their own system of belief, as I understand it, basic human decency. Why? Because we should only expect to get as good as we give. More to the point, because how we treat others has a very real bearing on how we feel about ourselves; a cruel person is an unhappy person. Presuming that happiness is a state to be desired, by treating others well we are treating ourselves well.[/ul]
9. Presuming the political power to do so, to what extent is a Christian required or permitted to impose his moral standards on those who hold different moral standards?[ul]Absolutely none whatsoever. Case in point: a Christian is allowed to intone the phrase “Under God” every time he or she recites the Pledge of Allegiance; it’s nonsensical and unconstitutional to insist, by law, that the person standing next to him do the same.[/ul]

1. Is there a God? Maybe, maybe not. The classic version of the Christian God, aka the Divine Weasel, most assuredly does not exist.

2. Does such a God have opinions on human moral behavior? See answer to #1 - maybe so, maybe not. IMHO, if such a God exists, it expects us to care for one another.

3. Is such a God identical to the historical God of Judaism and Christianity? Again, see #1 - or just “No”.

4. Is the Bible as it stands an accurate record of such a God’s views? No

5. What does the Bible have to say about homosexuality? Plenty of nasty stuff, with great big pointed teeth.

6. Is a “literal” reading of the passages answering question 5 an accurate representation of what God has to say? Abso-frikkin-lutely NOT.

7. To what extent is the Law of the Bible applicable to people today, Christian or not? Non Christians - irrelevant.
Christians - Although a subject of much debate, if I was going to take a Christian POV, I would say that the Law has been fulfilled and surpassed, with a new Law, that I love God & my neighbor, with all my heart.

8. What is the proper reaction of a Christian towards a gay person? This

Why is this the proper reaction? Well, since you asked, here is my answer :wink:

9. Presuming the political power to do so, to what extent is a Christian required or permitted to impose his moral standards on those who hold different moral standards The Bible does not tell Christians to deny those they consider sinners housing and employment, it tells them to love them (see #8!). Politics are irrelevant to the True Christian

I would just love to see a Christianity evolve that does not include condemnation and hate for those of us who may have more than a 0% attraction to the same sex. But like I said recently, I am the Rodney King of the SDMB. :sigh:

—It’s just common sense that biblical proscriptions regarding diet and dress are irrelevant in today’s society.—

His4ever just hasn’t read Acts or Paul very thouroughly.

—His4ever has just restated the concept that I was taken to task for suggesting: that she picks and chooses from the Bible to support her preexisting prejudices.—

I still think you’re overeaching. The common sense is based on more than the feeling that somehow, someway, homosexuality MUST be wrong. It’s based on all sorts of other ideas about the biblical concept of sex and marriage, of the difference between something being unclean and something being an abomination, of the heavy emphasis placed on sexual morality.

His4ever’s faith in these things is blind. I don’t doubt that. He has no idea what the common arguements behind his position are. He simply trusts those particular authorities as to having good arguements. And that’s dumb, I agree. But that’s not necessarily a sign of a desperate hatred looking for justification. That’s trusting in the word of the wrong people.

But you know as well as I that there IS at least a real case to be made on this Biblical issue that His4ever is ignorant of. And you seem interested in her mostly because she doesn’t know how to make that case: she can’t make all the standard moves. She’s a good sucker for you to wind up your utterly pointless label machine and type out a few zingers. What difference you think that makes, what cause that advances, is beyond me.

Oops: forgot to change some of those “hes”

—I believe that His nature is such that it is not only beyond description, it is beyond any possibility for our comprehension.—

If this is so, then it rules out absolutely any certainty one could possibly have about what sort of god he is, what his ultimate purposes are, whether they are good ro not, etc. You can’t pry knowledge or certainty out of something you’ve just designated a black hole of comprehension.

No . . . she’s a good case in point to illustrate what I believe is a pervasive and pernicious practice against straight supremecists who use religion as rationalization; something that is so blindingly obvious that your acrobatic and contrived justification for refusing to consider this one point–simply because I’m the one who made it–is likely to give me an inflated sense of my importance in your worldview, Apos.

Oh, and before you trot out again your easy but lazy assertion that by making that point in the first place I’m indulging in labelling, you’re putting the cart before the horse. I’m not saying “H4E is predetermined by me to be THUS”; I’m saying that the behavior I described above is a problem, and H4E–demonstrably–practices it. I make a very conscious effort in these debates (from which I doubtless stray from time to time) to focus on behaviors of individuals, and not labels, despite your ill-considered assertions to the contrary.

Sheesh–

–I’m on a friend’s AOhelL and am afraid to take the time to preview; I get knocked off every few seconds.

I thought we’d already listed the scriptures for this?? Don’t know why you’re asking for scriptures on homosexuality since you don’t agree with them or have a different interpretation or you say the original language doesn’t say that, etc. etc. But here they are anyway:

Leviticus 18:22
Leviticus 20:13
Romans 1:24-28
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Maybe Jude 7

By the way, I’ve learned that someone I’ve talked to on the computer is gay and I didn’t respond to this person in the hateful manner people here have accused me of having. I told the person I had no idea and was shocked and that I was sorry about all they’d gone through and that I wasn’t trivializing their feelings for this other person. I also said that of course, I couldn’t say that what they were doing was okay. Also, this person already knows what the scripture says about it and so I told them I wouldn’t list them. This person thanked me for my sensitivity and said they didn’t expect me to change my beliefs about it. So, you see , just because I believe it’s wrong doesn’t mean I hate gays.

Apos, I didn’t mean to suggest that God is a black hole of comprehension. I merely wished to convey the great difference in intellectual abilities between us and Him.

For example, how would someone on the same mental level as Albert Einstein or Stephen Hawking explain to his three year old son the nature of quantum physics? He couldn’t do it. The best he could do is put a few points in very simplistic terms, and hope that, due to the relationship between them, the child would trust him about all the rest.

This is not to say that we can only understand on the level of a three year old; it’s just to illustrate the vast difference in capacities between those involved. Fortunately, God knows our limitations and is able to explain at least some things on a level we can understand.

Of course, the crucial factor here is that the child trusts his father based on experience. If, however, the child has no basis for trust in his father, then it would be understandable for him to not accept even the simplest of assertions made by the father. This seems to be the point of difficulty between some of the posters in this thread.

Well, as fed up as I have gotten with this particular topic of debate, I guess I’ll answer this one.

1. Is there a God? Debatable and debated at length in other threads elsewhere. Discussion on this needs to be limited to an assertion of what you think.
Yes.

2. Does such a God have opinions on human moral behavior? Assumed w/r/t a positive answer to question 1. Deists may have other views.

Yes.

3. Is such a God identical to the historical God of Judaism and Christianity? Assume this for purposes of this thread. Freyr, I love you, but please don’t hijack this into a debate on whose god says what.

Yes.

4. Is the Bible as it stands an accurate record of such a God’s views? There are issues to be addressed here.

Yes.

5. What does the Bible have to say about homosexuality?

It’s fairly clear, in the same sense that the pacific ocean is fairly big.

6. Is a “literal” reading of the passages answering question 5 an accurate representation of what God has to say?

Yes. Depending, of course, on how you’re defining “literal”. There’s not a whole lot of room for intention when it says “A person who does X will get Y” or “A person who does X will not get Z”. The bible clearly says it’s bad. Whether it’s natural or fun or blue or green doesn’t matter - if you accept the bible’s authority (as I do) then it doesn’t matter.

7. To what extent is the Law of the Bible applicable to people today, Christian or not?

This is an interesting question, and not so cut and dry as the others. It applies to everybody in the same sense that the “law” of gravity applies to everybody. Whether you choose to believe in it or not, at some point your life will be judged according to it.

Also at issue is what parts are and are not still applicable, but that gets asked in another question.

8. What is the proper reaction of a Christian towards a gay person? Why is this the proper reaction? I see this one as the most critical question of the lot, given the attitudes presented in threads touching on the subject recently.

Again, fairly obvious. The same reaction as toward any other sinner, and therefore any other person, living or dead: With Godly love. That does not mean blanket approval of the person’s actions.

9. Presuming the political power to do so, to what extent is a Christian required or permitted to impose his moral standards on those who hold different moral standards?

Speaking politically:
I don’t believe that morality can or should be legislated, except in cases where violation of that morality causes harm to another person. In this I agree with Shodan: The government that governs best governs least. I want the government to pick up the trash, keep the water running, defend the shores, and otherwise stay the heck out of my (and everyone else’s) life.

HOWEVER…

As we live in a democratic republic, every one of us has the right to support any legislation that we choose - and those lucky few of us who are in a legislative position have the right to submit and determine any legislation - within the boundaries of the Constitution. So to answer the question: To what extent are Christians permitted to impose moral standards on others? To any extent that can be borne by his support base. In other words, if I have the necessary voter support and can get a law passed that makes it illegal to twaddle a widget, and that law is not in violation of the Constitution, then I have the right to do so.

For the record, I think YiBaiYuan’s two posts have pretty much nailed how I feel on the matter. God isn’t utterly incomprehensible, because he told us what he thinks about this and that. It is, however, impossible for us to comprehend him as he truly is. What we see is a shadow of his true being.

Example: I can’t even begin to picture in my mind a 5-dimensional figure where all points in all dimensions are equidistant from a single point, but I can look at a sphere and know that it is the 3-dimensional cross-section of that figure.

I can’t know the fullness of God’s mind, but I can certainly look at his self-portrait - the bible - and understand the part of him that our feeble (by comparison) human minds can comprehend.

I also think it’s silly to try to judge God according to our societal standards and our understanding for the same reason I don’t care if a grasshopper thinks I’m a bad person. God is so far beyond our ability to understand him that our judgement of him is so uninformed as to be meaningless.

Well, if that ain’t the truth.

I would venture to say that if we’re unable to comprehend God at this stage in societal development, that the simple tribesfolk who wrote the Bible were equally baffled, if not more so.

—Fortunately, God knows our limitations and is able to explain at least some things on a level we can understand.—

Unfortunately, this whole line of thought begs itself into being. It assumes certain purposes and goals and regularities into the character of god before it even gets started. Worse, the description of inscrutable being can be used to completely and resoundly undercut any of those assumptions.
Even assuming that god understands our limitations, or cares very much that we understand, or has motives for concealing his true plans (as certainly the Bible suggests happened at least once already) is a big step. And that an unknowable being with a nature beyond our comprehension has told or done some stuff is, in the face of its very nature, not really any better, from an epistemological point of view, than it spouting gibberish.

Even the idea of trying to convey things via analougy (parent/child) is in the end more trouble than its worth, because if we cannot know the being, we cannot know actual nature of the relation (it breaks down almost immediately anyway: my parents might have raised me, but they didn’t DESIGN me, and human parenting is the way it is for a whole number of cultural and practical limitations on the best mechanisms that parents have).

In short, the whole shebang runs smack into the general problem with strong agnosticism: you can’t know what you can or cannot know, because that presumes knowledge of the very thing you claim can’t be known.

—No . . . she’s a good case in point to illustrate what I believe is a pervasive and pernicious practice against straight supremecists who use religion as rationalization—

Your suspicion is that this is so. That would make things much easier rhetorically, I understand. But that’s not enough reason to demand that it be so, and even if it was, who cares? How does that advance any sort of debate? Maybe His4ever is a bigot who just uses the Bible to justify her views without knowing what it really says AND God still hates gays.

—something that is so blindingly obvious that your acrobatic and contrived justification for refusing to consider this one point–simply because I’m the one who made it–is likely to give me an inflated sense of my importance in your worldview, Apos.—

You are again demonstrating a ill-fated talent for presumption about the motives and thoughts of others. If you are so presumptuous with me, what does that suggest about your reading of His4ever?

Your proposed causality works thisaway: His4ever wakes up, thinks about men kissing, and gets disgusted. Then she goes and reads the Bible. Wow: a justification for her feelings! That she can use to bludgeon those who question her prejeduce!

I am suggesting, instead, that she developed her position because people told her that god doesn’t approve of gay sex.
Nevermind that you think this reading is a pick and choose disaster: that’s simply how it was put to her by others whose authority in matters Biblical she trusted. She thinks it is what the Bible says. And the fact is, we both know that there is a reasonable interpretation that supports this Biblically without being a pick and choose mess, though it is no less reasonable a reading than one which finds no problem (anymore?).

Perhaps it is a combination of the two. Perhaps not even His4ever can really say how things worked. But it is not enough hat someone reads the Bible differently than you to prove that they are reading it the way they are just to reach the conclusion they want.

And I fail to see how you justify your mind reading into this question, or even what purpose it even serves, aside from making you feel like your opponents are a bunch of weenies. So what? At best, all you are going to get is His4ever learning how to better defend the anti-homosexual reading.

to all those folks who think they believe and follow God yet don’t follow or believe in the bible, by what standard are you following and/or living by God’s will? Are you making up your own denomination or religion, or are you just living the way you want and as long as you feel good about things you are definetlly a christian.
I always have to wonder how people consider themselves christian, yet don’t fully believe in the bible. I could spend days quoting scripture to anyone who wants to know what God’s will is to everyone, but if you don’t believe in the bible, it is just futile.

 The bible clearly states what God's view is on homosexuality.  He is not vague on the subject at all.  I know first hand how gay people would love more than anything to be able to find a loophole, but you just won't find it in the bible.  Even if you get persuaded by people's opinion that Paul may be gay, don't jump on the bandwagon because that may make you feel more relieved.  Check it out yourself in the bible and you will know for a fact and have a strong conviction that is totally false.

 God's word is only in the bible, I have several friends who were homosexual yet changed their ways because of their faith in the bible.  

 It seems to me that these threads always tend to find many people who are looking to feel better and get comfort for their sexuality.

Didn’t I already respond to your post, funfan? If so, I’m a little pissed off: I think I slapped your arguements down but good, but now the sands of time have washed it all away…

You know, the Time Cube guy is looking better and better…

Esprix