God Helps Widdlest Sniper Victim Recover

[Arnold_Winkelried]

RTFirefly, I think the SDMB is a perfectly appropriate place to discuss the logical implications of someone’s words (even a thirteen-year-old’s words), as publicized by the media. I fail to see how we are harming the said 13-year-old, who only has a very low probability of reading this thread.
If someone were to take one of my off-the-cuff statements made in MPSIMS or even IRL at a dopefest, and logically dissect them at the board, I would not be offended.

Libertarian says: <<If the kid had said, “It is not possible that God exists”, would the atheists still be criticizing his ignorance (of ontology)?>> Maybe not, but the Christians would probably not be in here defending him either.

[Mr.Cynical]

God bless us, every one.

[Dr.Lao]

*Originally posted by Libertarian *
**What is evil about letting rotting meat rot? There’s no life in the atoms. **

Then why would God ever waste his time to prevent meat from spoiling?

[Jodi]

ARNOLD –

Jodi - you say “nothing that is evil can be laid at the feet of God” and “I don’t pretend that I am entitled – or even able – to understand the motivations of God”. Then how can you thank him for something, if you don’t even know that God did it or not?

If it’s good, I assume He did it. If I’m wrong, so what? If it’s bad, I assume He didn’t. If I feel that it’s appropriate to praise God for the blessings in my life, then I do so. I can’t prove that He’s responsible for them, though I may know in my heart that He is, but then neither can you prove that He’s not responsible for them.

OGRE –

Jodi, I’m perfectly aware that it is an article of faith, and has no logical reason. That’s why it’s not good enough for me.

Yes, well, it is good enough for me. And apparently for this 13 year old boy. So who are you to roll your eyes at his profession of his faith, just because you don’t share it? You can’t prove he’s wrong to attribute his recovery to God. You can’t even prove that God is doing something “bad” or “wrong” just because you, who have no idea why He does anything, conclude that it’s “bad” or “wrong.” Part of what we are expected to do as people of faith is belief in the goodness of God even when confronted with things that we cannot understand – like the presence of evil in a world created by someone who is good. You may not have the ability to live in that faith, but I can. And you are not in a position to say I am wrong of foolish to do so, because you can no more prove the fundamental validity of your disbelief than I can prove the fundamental validity of my belief. But add me to the ranks of those who think that “rolling your eyes” at the simple profession of faith from a child, just because he failed to tackle the Problem of Evil, is ridiculous. He’s not the Pope-ski; he’s a kid.

Is that not a Sin of Omission? Is that not evil in itself?

I believe it is not evil because God does not do evil things, though clearly He allows evil to be done. The question for me is not why He allows humanity to visit inhumanity upon itself, which I believe is a function of free will, but why He chooses to intervene in that process at all. Why does He help some but not others? I don’t pretend to know. But I don’t believe it is a Sin of Omission to not prevent the results of the exercise of free will, because to do so would negate free will entirely. To me, the question then becomes: If there is good reason to not prevent evil from flourishing in the world if that’s what humanity chooses to cultivate, then how can we criticize God for helping out occasionally? If we concede there’s reason not to do it all the time, what do we then argue for – no help at all, ever?

I agree that if a person had the power to rescue everyone in a given peril – to save every person drowning in a pool – and they failed to do so, that would be charged against them. But that presumes there’s no reason to not save them all. If there is a reason not to save them all, then is it an evil act to at least save some?

Again, these are thorny theological issues, on which I don’t expect us to agree. That’s why I think it’s silly to criticize a child for failing to address them from his hospital bed.

If I were saved from a violent serial criminal, I would thank God too – even if others suffered at the hands of that person, because I believe that the allowance of evil is not incompatible with the ultimate benevolence of God. Maybe I’m wrong in believing that, but surely it’s not a belief so inherently stupid or unusual as to merit disdain.

[papergirl]

Interestingly enough, when I survived a bout of Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever that should have killed me, my doctors called it a miracle…not a feat of medical intervention, because they did all they could and I still “should have died.”

Do you really believe that this child and his parents don’t recognize the work the doctors did to save his life? I find it hard to imagine that any of them are operating under the assumption that, had he been left bleeding on the pavement, he would have eventually gotten up and walked away. Honestly, I think it’s presumptous to accuse him of being “mistaken” because he has a different BELIEF system.

Out of curiousity, and I’m truly NOT trying to stir up trouble, but does it upset athiests when people say things like “Thank the Goddess!” or “Thank Allah!,” or otherwise give thanks to dieties other than God? What if someone posted a complaint about him for thanking Zeus–would this be the same thread, or would it be one defending his right to worship as he pleases?

I’m not particularly religious, I really don’t care what other people believe, and frankly the whole idea of ridiculing someone else’s beliefs kind of amazes me. This is a kid, after all, and we have no idea what he really feels, what he really said, or what his family believes about his recovery. (At least from the info in the OP, I mean.)

[Eonwe]

*Originally posted by Libertarian *
**Not so! Not having done X does not imply not having done Y. **

*Originally posted by Libertarian *
**Don’t put your words in my mouth. I’m not claiming anything except that you cannot ascribe either one. It is you who established the metaphysical assertion. What I said was that not doing X doesn’t imply not doing Y. **

Lib, if you’re going to assert that this kid was correctly thanking God for his recovery, and assert that God had no role in getting the kid shot in the first place, then you’ve got to admit to a completely arbitrary set of guidelines as to where God does and does not involve himself with mortals, and that set of guidelines is completely based on your own opinion.

*Originally posted by elfkin477 *
**Why can’t you be? Most people who have some faith are angry at God from time to time, it’s “allowed.” You can be angry at God for not intervining, you can be angry at the devil for wanting bad things to happen to people, and most of all you can be angry at people for using their free will to choose a hurtful choice rather than a netural or kind one. At the same time, you can be thankful to God that you live, thankful to people that they saved you and thankful to escape the devil’s plans for you. None of it has to be an all or nothing choice on a faithful person’s part. **

elfkin, I was posting that in response to the idea that God was only responsible for the good parts of this story (recovery) and not the bad (injury). If God is responsible for all the good and bad, then I just don’t see the point in thanking him for getting me out of a tough situation that he was responsible for creating in the first place.

[Jodi]

if you’re going to assert that this kid was correctly thanking God for his recovery, and assert that God had no role in getting the kid shot in the first place, then you’ve got to admit to a completely arbitrary set of guidelines as to where God does and does not involve himself with mortals, and that set of guidelines is completely based on your own opinion.

Not that this was addressed to me but – Of course it is. As a general rule, to a theist who believes in a benevolent God, the “guidelines” are that if it’s good, God did it, but if it’s bad, He didn’t. These are not “arbitrary,” they flow directly from the believe in a benevolent God – i.e., one who does good and not evil. As I said, the question then becomes: Why does God help some but not others? I’ve yet to meet a theist who pretends to have the authoritative answer to this very old question.

[Eonwe]

But Jodi, how do you then reconcile God’s choice to not do good in some instances? That’s the thing that stumps me. If he’s accountable for benevolent deeds, isn’t he also accountable for not acting in a benevolent way at other times? To me it feels very much like a “look the other way” attitude. Well, God’s doing good things for me now, so I’m not going to think about the people for whom he is not doing good things.

This is why if I believed in God, it would be one who no longer has anything to do with events on Earth.

[Arnold_Winkelried]

*Originally posted by Jodi *
If it’s good, I assume He did it. … If it’s bad, I assume He didn’t.

While it is human nature (and perfectly understandable) to look for the evidence of God in the world surrounding us, I still think that, since the purposes of God are unfathomable to our limited understanding, any assumption we make about what God did vs. what God didn’t do is prone to error. I also think that the ideal Christian would thank God even for the tribulations that come his way. Isn’t that the lesson from the book of Job?

[Arnold_Winkelried]

*Originally posted by bodypoet *
does it upset athiests when people say things like “Thank the Goddess!” or “Thank Allah!,” or otherwise give thanks to dieties other than God?

I would argue that those people are just as mistaken as the people thanking the Christian God, or the people who make offerings to Ganesh.
But in the society in which I live, the person who says “Let us praise Zeus for this miracle!” is much less likely to find kindred spirits who will nod in agreement, and I have a high degree of confidence that the next religious person who tries to convert me will not be bringing up some miracle as evidence of the existence of Zeus.

[papergirl]

Thank you, Arnold. It’s not a situation I’ve seen addressed before, and I honestly wondered if it was the belief in a diety in/of itself, or the belief in a Christian God that was the issue.
(I think I explained that, not sure.)

[Jodi]

EONWE –

But Jodi, how do you then reconcile God’s choice to not do good in some instances? That’s the thing that stumps me. If he’s accountable for benevolent deeds, isn’t he also accountable for not acting in a benevolent way at other times? To me it feels very much like a “look the other way” attitude. Well, God’s doing good things for me now, so I’m not going to think about the people for whom he is not doing good things.

Well, to a certain extent I can rely on the free will explanation – that the exercise of free will by people necessarily includes allowing the results of their choices. And that in turn precludes “saving” everyone all the time. As I said: If we accept that as a rationale for not saving everyone all the time, do we then blame God for saviing some people, occasionally. Far from accusing Him of an evil act, doesn’t that amount to blaming Him for a good one? In any event, that doesn’t excuse the allowance of suffering in the world that is not the product of free will, like disease. So the frank bottom line is: I can’t reconcile it. But then, I can’t tell you how He created the universe, either. I simply try to accept that there are many things I don’t understand – can’t understand – and have faith that they will make sense to me someday. “For now we see through the glass darkly, but then, face to face; now we understand in part, but then we will understand fully, as we have been fully understood.” Anyway, you might do a search for “Problem of Evil,” since it’s been discussed multiple times, and by people far more knowledgeable than I.

[Jodi]

ARNOLD –

While it is human nature (and perfectly understandable) to look for the evidence of God in the world surrounding us, I still think that, since the purposes of God are unfathomable to our limited understanding, any assumption we make about what God did vs. what God didn’t do is prone to error.

First, I don’t particularly “look for” evidence of God in the world surrounding me, though I find it there. Just because that particular resonance isn’t sounding in your heart doesn’t mean it isn’t sounding in mine. Second, as I already said, the fact that God is essentially and definitionally unfathomable does not mean there is no merit in attempting to understand Him. Third, you’re hardly in a posiition to say that my beliefs are “erroneous,” or even “prone to error,” since if God is as completely and entirely unfathomable as you posit (but as I do not, seeing as how I belive He wants a personal relationship with each of us), you are in no better to position to say what he would or would not do than I am.

I also think that the ideal Christian would thank God even for the tribulations that come his way. Isn’t that the lesson from the book of Job?

“Please sir may I have another”? That may be what the ideal Christian would do, but I think it’s asking a lot of the average human, and I’ve never personally met a non-fundie Christian who would presume to hold him- or herself out as ideal.

[Nightime]

This thread reminds me of why I would never donate food or money to starving children.

What if on receiving the life-saving sustenance, the children started to weep and thank God?

I just can’t take the chance that the ungrateful little scum would thank someone other than me.

[Arnold_Winkelried]

*Originally posted by Jodi *
you’re hardly in a posiition to say that my beliefs are “erroneous,” or even “prone to error,” since if God is as completely and entirely unfathomable as you posit … you are in no better to position to say what he would or would not do than I am.

Therefore no one else can label what I am saying as erroneous either, because no one really knows what God wants. Even though you may think you have a greater insight into God’s mind than others such as myself, I think that God’s mind is so far behind yours (or mine) that you would be fooling yourself. That’s my position and I stick to it.

That may be what the ideal Christian would do, but I think it’s asking a lot of the average human

Granted. However I can still remind the Christian who says “thank God for the good things in my life” that s/he should also be thanking God for the bad things. There is greater credit in accomplishing something difficult than there is in accomplishing something easy.

[Jodi]

Therefore no one else can label what I am saying as erroneous either, because no one really knows what God wants. Even though you may think you have a greater insight into God’s mind than others such as myself, I think that God’s mind is so far behind yours (or mine) that you would be fooling yourself. That’s my position and I stick to it.

And I think, ARNOLD, that God’s mind is so far beyond (I assume you meant beyond?) yours (or mine) that you don’t have any frame of reference whatsoever to judge whether I’m fooling myself or not. How would you know?

However I can still remind the Christian who says “thank God for the good things in my life” that s/he should also be thanking God for the bad things. There is greater credit in accomplishing something difficult than there is in accomplishing something easy.

Ah. Sort of a gratuitious reminder to that Christian that he or she can do better? Good plan! But if they’re not up to thanking God for negative feedback, what are the chances they’ll thank you for it?

And I’m out of town for the weekend, so I won’t be back for a while. Hope you all have great weekends, wherever you are.

[Carcosa]

*Originally posted by Nightime *
**This thread reminds me of why I would never donate food or money to starving children.

What if on receiving the life-saving sustenance, the children started to weep and thank God?

I just can’t take the chance that the ungrateful little scum would thank someone other than me. **

Me too! When I hit the grocery store in the morning I’m going to demand that someone dig through that food bin and find those cans I tossed in!

Never before did I realize how important it was for me to wring gratitude out of children. Why, the little whelps! And what if my can of string beans ends up with people that say grace before eating! Oh, the horrors, the horrors!

And I won’t even begin to entertain the thought of “offensive” media coverage that belittles my can of string beans. Of course, we could just round up everybody that doesn’t reflect our own beliefs and toss them in jail. Maybe when they see where their bread and water comes from they will see the error of their ways.

[Magickly_Delicious]

Rah! What Jodi said. My brain is too fried to talk theology in MPSIMS.

[Arnold_Winkelried]

Nightime, Carcosa - you will notice that it is not the 13-year-old’s doctors who are taking issue with his statment. Of course, when you give a christmas present to your nephew, and your nephew, instead of thanking your for it gives full credit to Santa Claus, I’m sure you will be able to accept that with equanimity.

[Jake]

Eve, beagledave made it fairly clear. Modern medical techniques can do a LOT more than religion. At least for the body.