Hello Again,
Thanks to everyone for the food for though on my previous God question. I have a few and I think a new thread would be appropriate for each, so the discussion stays focused.
Okay, while pondering the God question and talking with my wife I had a, what I believe, is a common thought. When a major (or minor for that matter) disaster happens, lets say a plane crash, and a few people survive you will hear them credit their survial to the intervention of God. I can understand that reasoning, because they lack any other reasonable explination for surving. However is it reasonable to assume that God deemed these few people worthy of surviving, but the other 200 people aboard didn’t deserve intervention as well? If God was really looking out for them would he, instead of saving them during the crash, prevent the crash in the first place. Keep the engine from blowing up or the wind shear from hitting them?
I have always heard the rationalization that everything happens for a reason and it has always bothered me. God is always credited for a postive outcome, but I rarely hear anyone “blame” God for bad events. Even in the arena of sports, an athlete will credit a victory to the will of God. What about the other team? Does this athlete really think that no one on the other team deserved help as well. And more importantly why in the world would an athlete think that God would even care about a game? I would think that if I were God I would have more pressing issues at hand than the Super Bowl.
I know this is a common thought, but I would like to hear some opinions on it. I am really more interested in the opinions of “believers” more than those of you who don’t believe. Not that I don’t think your opinion counts, but something tells me most of you would have a standard response of “this is why there can’t be a God”. I am curious as to the opinions of those who could justify a God saving the person in seat 44A while he allows the person in 44b to perish.
I just made the popcorn and will be checking back soon.
You really should probably go to a more religious website than this one is for answers to your questions.
Just once I’d love to see an athlete blame Jesus for a loss.
“We would have won, but fucking Jesus made me fumble.”
That is a thought, but I certianly wouldn’t get the range of opinions that I am looking for. I am not looking for Christians who are so far to one side try to convince me about God. I am looking for the opinions from “the common man”. Opinions of people like myself. Asking this question at a religious site would result in all the answers being biased, same as if I asked at an Atheiest site. The S Dopers seem to encompass a wide range of beliefs, income levels, education levels to offer a diverse opinion base. I reason that if I ask this question to an group that is diverse rather than a group that has a mutual belief I have an actuall chance of getting the information I need to form a conclusion.
Put it this way, the worst people in the world to ask if I should buy a new Honda would be a group of Honda sales people. The opinions they would give would be so biased, that the information would be essentially worhtless to me.
Well, perhaps God has a weird and impenetrable plan that appears to us, without benefit of interpretation, to be cruel, uncaring and arbitrary.
or…things just happen on a fairly random basis.
Not all Theists believe in a God who intervenes directly in everyday events. Even those who do will probably know better than to run with this particular pair of scissors.
Look at it this way:
Take 200 dominoes and dump them on the seat of a bar stool. All those that fall off the stool, and hit the ground, are those that died in the crash. The few remaining dominoes that ended up not falling off are the survivors.
Life is random in this way, and if you just happen to be one of those dominoes that didn’t fall, say one of 5 survivors out of the 200, I think it’s human nature to reflect on that as something of divine intervention, if you’re already a believer (or lack critical thinking). The only other option is an indifferent random, toss of the dice (domino) in this circumstance.
Take any scenario or circumstance like this, and it applies. People want to attribute and confirm their already established beliefs, biases and world view, and conveniently ignore (willfully, even) that the baby that got charred in the inferno of the fuselage doesn’t quite fit in their little theocratic view of “worthiness”, and a sovereign, loving God.
No, they’d rather believe they’re in the “hands of God, guarded with a hedge of protection” and only God knows why he took those that he did.
It kinda makes me sick, because its so egregiously ignorant, self-important, and smacks of denial that this world is far more random and indifferent that they’d like to believe.
I don’t think we should be seeing athletes endorse a god. It sort of provides an excuse to not think about the big picture. Yeah, you’re here due to a god’s interference, not because of all the hard work you did to play in the pros, you’re also forgetting who didn’t make it due to injury, illness, etc.
As far as the accidents go, even if a little kid gets lost in the woods, I think the people who organize and run a prayer group better not be partaking in any donated refreshments, they’re just in the way. You are NOT helping find a kid or rescue people from a burning building by sitting and talking to the ceiling. Still, we’ll hear about how “goddidit” instead of who really made the rescue/finding/CPR/ etc.
How god, a human invention, changes with every nonsensical tragic outcome, tells me that everyone who claims to believe only believes in THEIR god.
Interesting comment. Reminds me of a House episode (I think it was House). He made the comment that when you are dying you pray to God, when you should be praying to him (or any doctor), because God isn’t going to save you, but you might have a chance with the doctor.
Also, keep in mind that I am not knocking those who attribute good things to God. I just keep having this thought that if you are going to give God credit when things work out the way you want, it is reasonble to assign blame to him when those things turn out badly. Or look at it this way, if God has the power and ability to intervine and save someone, but doesn’t (in the case of the 200 who didn’t make it) doesn’t it stand to reason that by his inaction he is to blame?
It certainly stands to reason… but we’re talking about a divine being of whom we are at his mercy.
If something good happens to you, than it’s considered a blessing and gift from God.
If something tragic happens, it’s considered a trial or lesson God has allowed to take place for whatever reason.
It’s justification as to when shit happens in equal and/or random amounts to the good stuff, you can go about your merry way knowing God’s on your side, except when He’s not. :rolleyes:
I think of the Chilean miners who were finally rescued and many felt “blessed” or “saved” by god for this. Many online comments praised him over and over, saying “our prayers have been answered”. There are plenty of mines that have collapsed, killing all the miners by leaving them buried alive. Don’t hear much about god on that one. But if we do, it’s usually something along the lines of “the lord works in mysterious ways”, or “they’re in a better place”. Comfort at it’s most convenient.
Exactly this. This is why we have human law. If this deity were a true example of justice, genocide may just be a small fine. 
This is related to the problem of evil, why would a benevolent God allow suffering? The best counter-argument is the necessity of free-will, but that doesn’t explain why so much suffering is completely arbitrary, such as cancer, disease and genetic defects.
There are lots of ways that “common person” could deal with this. I think the the principle approach that God has set up the machinery, but lets nature take its course. That is, God doesn’t interfere. If you jump off a cliff, no matter how much you pray, gravity is gonna do its thing. Airline crashes are not “random” in the sense that there is a natural cause (terrorism, technical misfire, drunk pilot, mini-burst, whatever.) Cancer isn’t random, either – we just don’t know the causes or cures yet.
By not interfering with nature, God allows us to learn more about how the world works, and try to control/help more. (That’s the “not interfere with free will” argument.)
ASIDE: Amongst religious superstitions and good luck charms, I found the ones in Japan to be fairly effective. There are charms for all sorts of things, and they each come with instructions (how to perform the rite to invoke the good luck.) The charm for good luck on exams, for instance: the magic rite to invoke the charm is to study hard, eat well, get enough rest. The charm for good luck in driving, the rite to invoke it is to learn the rules of the road and follow them, keep your temper, be alert. As I say, the most effective good luck charms in the world!
Yep, wouldn’t it be nice if we could ask the dead how they feel about special providence. Ingersoll’s short read on this: Orthodoxy: Special Providence
If I ever become famous, that’s exactly what I would do. I figure somebody needs to balance out all the god thanking
When some people say that “everything happens for a reason,” it makes me suspect they’re thinking of life as a tightly plotted novel, in which everything that happens, happens because the author chose for it to happen.
It’s like the difference between a movie about a sporting event, and a real live sporting event. In the movie, who wins, and how, is all a matter of the moviemakers’ choices. If a player gets injured, we could ask “Why?” and the answer might be “To increase dramatic tension” or “To give an opportunity for triumph over adversity” or “To give another player a chance to shine.” In real life, none of those answers make sense—unless you’re assuming God is micromanaging things and somehow arranged the injury for His own dramatic purposes.
Such a belief (which, for the record, I do not endorse, though I’m not sure how to disprove it) is only comforting if you think of yourself and your loved ones as the heros of the story, and not the antagonists or the extras (like the red-shirted crewmen on Star Trek).
I believe in a “messier” universe than that, one that isn’t micromanaged, one in which there is room for human actions to make a difference and where not everything that happens fits into some nice comprehendable scheme. I believe that God is ultimately in control, but I honestly don’t know how, when, or to what extent God (or Providence) affects earthly events. Also believe that, if (or however, or to the extent that) things do happen for a reason, our reasons are not God’s reasons; and the things we care about are not always necessarily the things God cares about (nor are they the things we should or would care about, if we shared God’s eternal perspective).
The free will and “mysterious ways” defenses both fail for numerous reasons. No one has ever successfully countered the POE (at least not for an omnimax God).
You have to consider how human events look from a diving perspective rather than a human perspective. You pointed out that it’s hard to believe God cares who wins a football game. Now ask yourself if God cares when people die. Sure, death seems like a major event to us, but would God see it that way? To God, we’re all a bunch of mayflies - why would he care if we die in a plane crash today or of old age fifty years from now? To God, all life is a temporary condition and he has no reason to intervene in it.
Which is a valid point of divine perspective, especially considering the Christian God. We are born into sin, and every bit of suffering (perceived deserved or undeserved) is a result of that original sin. But in God’s eyes, earthly and temporary.
One must pray and pray and pray for an intervention if you find yourself or loved ones in a tragic circumstance.
But then, why do positive outcomes seem on par with a flip of the coin? And usually due to the harrowing efforts of rescuers or talented physicians? The credit due to them (and not that they’re looking for any credit, per se) is quickly sidelined by God’s mercy, or they were the hands God was working through.
There’s just absolutely no pattern to be discerned at all. And it’s this lack of pattern that makes me :dubious: .
I recall that the comic Brian Regan (sp?) had a routine years ago about a football player blaming god for the loss… " We could have won, but jesus made me fumble"
