God must love me. But he hates you guys!!!!!

Reminds me of the Oklahoma City Federal building bombing. Afterwards, many of the survivors reported that their “guardian angels” had been protecting them, which is why they didn’t perish with the other victims.

Good God (so to speak), there must have been over a hundred guardian angels in the Oklahoma City Federal building that day, shielding their charges from flying debris and collapsing floors. To my mind, that’s a waste of good guardian-angel manpower. All they really needed was for one (ONE!) guardian angel to arrive a little earlier and unplug the detonator wire from the truck-bomb. Then nobody would have died. Why didn’t God think of sending an angel to do that instead? He’s supposed to be omniscient, fer cryin’ out loud!

Um, I’d challenge that to a very small extent. There is a partial answer. It’s not complete, and it’s quite unsatisfying. But it is there, and requires only the initial assumption of an omnipotent God (for the sake of the argument at least).

In a universe where there is an all-powerful God, for “Good” and “Evil” to mean anything, for “doing his will” to mean something more than automatons obeying their programming, free will must exist, and must be meaningful. I.e., faced with a moral choice, humans must, first, be able to choose freely between good and evil, and second, not be completely shielded from the consequences of their actions. In fact, any choice can be seen in this context. Far more Kansans are killed by tornadoes than Connecticutians, far more Floridians by hurricanes than Montanans. And it’s very rare to be killed in a Georgia blizzard, while numerous Northern state people run this risk every year. So even where you live is a choice with consequences.

Now, given that, and the supposition that God does care about the people He created, we have this difficult question of why He allows things we perceive as evil to happen. For that matter, why death anyway? It hurts the average person just as much to lose their parent at age 95 as it would at age 45; you’re just a little more inured to the idea by then.

This is where the reasonableness stops. “Mysterious ways” jump in. But I submit that one might allow Him the same license one allows a novelist or movie scriptwriter – that this seemingly random and senseless event will, when the full plot is disclosed, make sense in that larger context. That’s an element of the “faith=trust” thing I’ve been speaking of: that He, who is at least as good at surprise twists as O. Henry, is also as good at tying off loose ends and making the plot make sense when you’ve finished the story of your life. I’m seeing that now in my own life, as disparate experiences over 20 years of childhood and adolescence and 30 years of adulthood begin knotting themselves together to form a beautifully woven whole. The cloth is pretty ragged yet, but I have confidence in the Loommaster’s skill.

And there, perhaps, is an end on it. My wife ran into a haunting phrase some time ago: “Death is the ultimate healing.” If we’re only seeing, blurrily, half of the picture, with elements of that beyond the edge of our vision, how can we decide whether it’s a Mona Lisa, an American Gothic, or the sloppy fingerpainting of a kindergartener? Or distinguish that from random daubs left when the paintmixer in the next room threw a rod? That’s basically what we’re arguing about, from our limited perspectives.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by goboy *

Ok I’ll give it the old college try. The reason I asked if this was a trick is because you say the idea of an afterlife is speculative. Well if God of the Bible exist, then there is an afterlife. If God didn’t exist he wouldn’t kill anybody including atheist, Muslims, Jews they would just die as a course of life. Now I could also make the point that maybe the reason that he doesn’t kill atheists, Jews, Muslims is to give them more time to come back to him. Where the Christians are automatically taken to a better place when they die.

Also I don’t personally believe that God steps in a whole lot in the day to day lives of humans if we don’t ask him to. So life and death good and bad just happen as they happen.

Now Job that is a tough one Goboy. I have always trouble with Job too. But as Poly pointed about the final picture of one’s life brings in to perspective.

Look how his(Job’s) life is used as an example of how to always put trust in God all through history. I think God is going to massively reward Job in Heaven where it really matters because it is an eternity. Because I really believe there are going to be different levels of reward in Heaven. So Job will have a pad in Heaven that would make the royalty of London look like paupers(i hope that is the right spelling for a poor person)

It is the way you look at things. While I was talking to my mom today, she reminded me of that. See her mother died on Christmas day of cancer when she was 10. And she told me that ever once a while when she thinks about it(she is 60 now) she remembers what my best friend(when he heard the story) said to her when we were in 6th grade. He said, “well your mom got the best present that day huh?”

We are mortal, therefore, we die. At some point, humans evolved to the extent that we could try to find a reason for our mortality, and out of our mortality. Gods were created in our minds to suggest the reasons for the course of natural events. The concept of an all-powerful deity is a simple way to explain why things happen. Because we couldn’t possibly know the mind of a deity, however, we cannot explain why He does the things He does. We, therefore, must have faith, and then we can enter paradise upon our death.

It all seems silly and contrived to us atheists. We die because our bodies fail us or circumstances occur that lead to our deaths. If you want to live longer, slow down on the highway. That will increase your chances. I have to laugh when I see a motorist with a Jesus fish whose tailgating and weaving through traffic.

Hey! God’s not going to kill today, but if you don’t slow down, you sure could!

Your answer Poly, which I have read in past threads, is actually the one I was thinking of when I said “two parts faith and one part mysterious ways,” which is certainly much distilled down from your longer posts on the topic. At bottom though, I think it stands as a terse summation. You have faith that God exists as portrayed, faith in his ultimate wisdom and goodness, and a very limited knowledge of what his ultimate plans entail. This is, ultimately, the only answer I have seen that that still assumes that God is both all-powerful and wholly good.

I wasn’t trying to be critical or flip, but had hoped that a pre-emptive shot across the bow would keep the thread from being dragged into a debate of the Problem of Evil, when it’s really about whether God acts teleologically for the benefit of his followers. Although PoE isn’t a complete tangent, I thought we could go on without it.

This has basically boiled down to the “Problem of Evil.”

Summing up the problem might be of use to this board. Here is my favourite rendition.

-There is evil in the world.

-If God is omniscient (all-knowing,) than God must know about the evil in the world.

-If God is omnibenevolent (all-good,) than God must desire to eradicate the evil in the world.

-If God is omnipotent (all-powerful,) than God must be able to eradicate all evil in the world.

However, God has not eradicated the evil in the world!

Therefore, one or more of these must be true:
-God does not know about the evils of the world (is not omniscient.)
-God must not want to eradicate the evils of the world (is not omnibenevolent.)
-God cannot eradicate the evils of the world (is not omnipotent.)
-God does not exist.

Hope that helps…

I think the shorter version of that, SOUP, is either “If God is omnipotent, why does He allow evil to exist?” or “If God created the world, didn’t He create evil and if so, why?”

My take on these (and your version as well) is that evil is the mutation of human selfishness. (I freely admit this is just my own POV, and not even the general Christan party line.) But if God gave humans free will (and I believe He did), and if that free will is to mean anything, He ought to allow us to choose to do evil and to suffer the consequences of that evil. If He’s going to put His big ol’ foot down every time we misbehave, then we don’t really have free will, do we?

Therefore, I guess my answer would be that I do not perceive of God as being “omni-benevolent” if by that you mean “only ALLOWING good to happen,” as opposed to only doing good (and being good) Himself.

I understand the Free Will response to the Problem of Evil when it comes to negative human actions.
But what of hurricanes and tornadoes, Polycarp? You mention that the damage they do is due to Free Will as well.

Well, in that case, either invidible demons are stirring up tornadoes, or the Free Will was on the part of God when he/she/it created earth and set the continents in motion.
I mean, no continental drift = no earth quakes, right?
Make the earth an idylic string of islands banding the equator, or near to it, and now, no freezing blizzards.
By the same token, no mountain ranges, so no tornadoes.

How do natural disasters factor into Free Will, in your opinion?
Why does God allow bits of rock to pummel the earth from time to time, causing mass extinctions? A careful synchronization of the planet with some guardian moons, I imagine, could prevent that… Or God could simply have skipped on creating the Oort cloud, the Kuiper belt, and the Asteroid Belt in the first place.

Or is your god the Deistic kind who set the universe in motion, but cannot prevent bits of the clockwork from bashing other bits of the clockwork to pieces? Who can only watch as it runs down, as the sun eventually flares and crisps the earth, as the people cry out in pain?

Soup: You forgot one other option: Evil does not exist.

Christian Scientists and some mystics believe this…that all worldly suffering is an illusion, or that what we perceive as evil is really good…like a dog getting a shot thinks the shot is evil, but the vet knows it is good. Personally, I think this is an awful philosophy, but there you are.

And Jodi…aw, I was just teasing a bit, but you can insert some mumblings about Occam’s Razor and how we shouldn’t believe in objects that we have no evidence for, etc, etc…

Um, not to answer for POLYCARP, but I took his point to be that if you move yourself into the path of a natural disaster, your free will plays a part (to that extent) in the result that you are hit by that type of natural disaster.

I mean, if I’m ever hit by a tidal wave, I’ll consider that a true Act of God (in the most literal sense), but then I live in Montana. If I freeze to death, I might be construed to be culpable in my fate (if only ever so slightly) because I choose of my own free will to live in a place where that eventuality is possible.

Again, this is “why does God allow bad things (and/or evil) to happen?” I think the only honest answer from those who believe in a benevolent God is “we don’t really know.”

Surely you see that because God may choose not to intervene, that does not automatically mean He could not intervene if He chooses. Well, if He can, why doesn’t He when bad things happen? We don’t know. See above.

LEMUR:

You didn’t offend me, I just almost always greet affirmative pronouncements that God does not exist with “prove it.” :slight_smile:

But since, as I already said, God is both supernatural and supranatural, transcending the provable or disprovable, then any application of Occam’s Razor runs you right into the paradox of attempting to prove that which exists outside of the natural, observable world using only the natural, observable world. Just because you can’t prove it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, right?

Darn it, Jodi and Soup, I was just about to say that stuff when my computer locked up!

I have two small things to add…if you feel them irrelevant to the discussion, I’m sorry, dismiss them. But:

In speaking of a “God with a Plan” you are assuming fatalism. If God has a plan, and therefore God can know what is going to happen in the future (because he planned it) it stands to reason that you, everyone, and everything else must naturally follow this plan, or else they disprove God’s omniscience. Therefore, either people are fated to follow the plan, or God does not have one. I don’t know if that made sense, but I don’t know how you can believe in God’s Plan and not believe in fatalism. If an omniscient God has a plan (as he must, if he knows everything that has ever happened and will ever happen), you cannot act contrary to that plan without causing God to have had a false belief, which would render him no longer omniscient. If you don’t believe in an omniscient God, well, all this is irrelevant. Carry on. I suppose “Omniscience of God entails ‘plan’,” but I will concede that it is possible that “‘Plan’ does not entail omniscience of God”

(That was quite very loosely based on Nelson Pike’s “God’s Foreknowledge and Human Free Will are Incompatible,” which I don’t think I did justice. But I tried.)

My second addition to this thread is just an addition to Soup’s “…one or more of these must be true.” A fifth possibility: Evil does not exist.

I wasn’t disputing that, I was simply pointing out it wasn’t an answer to the problem of evil, simply because these dangers exist everywhere in the world, to a great extent due to its construction. From this we can conclude that either God does not exist, or these disasters are part of their intent. We would consider allowing such disasters to be evil, therefore the problem of evil still exists. One cannot say that God is allowing it to preserve our freedom of choice.

Can you name me a part of the world where you would be same from natural disasters? My point was that God allows this evil to occur, and we are relatively helpless against it.

It is possible to believe that all evil is part of some greater benevolent master plan, that the alternatives would be far worse (hard to believe if God is omnipotent and omniscient), but this is such an awkward explanation to the problem of evil that the freewill defense was invented. Naturalistic causes of evil are the usual response to that. I would like to see how Polycarp will respond. A “don’t know” will be fine. :slight_smile:

But that’s the whole heart of the argument. Bad things happen, God does not prevent them, either God does not have the ability to stop them, or god is not omnibenevolent.
Your conceding this point is appreciated, but again, I would like to see Polycarp’s response.

Hm. Maybe Good doesn’t exist either.
Or omnibenevolence.
Well, at least we’ve settled that we have a God that allows suffering that humans did not choose to inflict on themselves, right?

Well, not really. Along with the possibility (strange, but it’s always a possibility…more of a definition problem) “Evil does not exist” is the possibility “God does not exist.” Then again, if “evil” is basically a matter of definition, so is “God.” If you define God as omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient, and there is a “god” who is simply not omnipotent, then no matter that he’s omnip and omnib, God does not exist, according to your definition of “God.”

Wow. Have I really strayed off-topic, or what?

I have no problem with putting limits on God. However, omnipotence is one I think people with be loath to give up.
But then the question is, just what is God anyway?
If God is simply the event that marks the beginning of our space-time, then I don’t see any reason for it to be omnibenevolent, omnipotent, or omniscient.
I agree, those concepts were created due to the idea of God being perfect. The need for this perfect Being was due to a human desire for there to be some pinacle solution to the entire hierarchy of existence.
And no, I don’t think this has strayed off topic. It still focuses on answering the problem of evil by saying God does not have the power to prevent it.
People believing in a force of good equally as strong as the force of evil would accept that. For them, it is all about the duel between the dual. :slight_smile:
Discussing all of this is silly, though. We have no evidence to show most of these beings exist, quite a few of them are contradictory (internally or to evidence) and so far there has been no way shown for us to test for their existence (which means find some example of their interaction). Therefore, it’s easiest and most efficient to presume and act as if they don’t exist.
(Don’t even bother with Pascal’s Wager, btw. Who knows if you bet on the right hypothesis?)

There is another possibility you are not exploring. Regardless of whether G-d exists or not, you are assuming that things you don’t want to happen are evil. Is this necessarily so?

~~Baloo

I was always under the assumption that you can’t prove a negative…

Quix

Well, if we define god (for the purposes of the debate) as omniscient, omnipotent, and omni-benevolent (or “OOaO” for short), then there certainly remains the possibility that we’re completely wrong about what is “evil.” It might be fine for women to be violated. It could be just dandy when a kid dies of leukemia. Perhaps it’s a good thing when a tornado kills a baby.

Of course, I consider no god who wills those things to be worthy of my praise, so it’s all gravy for me (you know, philosophically).

See the two or three posts above this one you made. :stuck_out_tongue: