Put down the straw man. Why are some atheists so set in their arguments that they don’t actually listen to what people are saying? They are beginning to sound more dogmatic and close minded than the one trick pony Southern Babtists.
Please reread the thread. Try to understand the individual points. Do some basic research if you do not understand a reference. I know that there are some intelligent atheists out there, but they are hard to find among the pile of straw men and invisible pink unicorn beenie babies that continually litter these type of threads.
To aid you in your understanding, here is a quick summation of my earlier points, in no particular order:
I didn’t invent God.
He may be the creator but he is not my dad, so literal comparisons are moot.
He is not some old bearded guy reading names off of a list - that’s Santa Claus.
Evil is necessary to insure free will.
There are other ways to view God besides your inaccurate understanding of Christian dogma and mythology.
I’d agree re: Falwell’s hateful “you helped this happen” remark. However, “bible-thumpers” who tell non-believers that they’d better get on board or go to hell are most definitely preaching the word of God. I’m relatively certain I didn’t misinterpret John 3:16 – believe, or perish. God looks out for some (those who worship him) and not others (those who worship another, or no one).
I respectfully disagree. The “scare tactic” preachers aren’t incorrect when they loudly remind their parishioners of what God has in store for those who don’t toe the line; I’m sure they feel the end justifies the means, if they save a soul or two along the way. The Bible says that non-believers, even non-believers who lead exemplarly lives, are damned.
I see alot of trivialization to someonething most of you do not understand. If you truely wanted an answer instead of making fun of it then learn. Read the bible or Qoean or whatever. The answers are there. YOu are not the first people to wonder why. The answers are in the texts of the Holy Scriptures like someone else mockingly pointed out.
Theist/athiest is not an uninformed decision anyone should make. And to me 99% of thiests are ignorant of what they deny.
I had a n argument debate the other day whne someone says that if you cannot prove it then it is not so. I said the same to him. Prove that there is not a God. WHat is my proof? Look around you. You have life and love.
The scientists figured the life part out huh? Sure billions of years ago a lightning bolt struck the ocean and created an organism. Just blind luck. I am waiting on the scientists to tell me why I have feelings.
What is funny is that the so called athiests are just a thiest as anyone. In my opinnion they believe in the divinity or godliness of man. Maybe not overtly now, but man thinks that he/she has the pontential to know all. An athiests anthem is “If there is a God, why can I not understand Him?”. I see that to them if it wals like a duck, sounds like a duck, looks like a duck, it must be a duck. If it doesnt then you are foolish to think it is one.
If you say there is not a God then who gave you the right to know that? I don’t want to blanket everyone with this assumption so do not be offended with my remarks.
The best that an “athiest” can say is that they do not know if there is a God or not. They can dissbeleive, but they cannot truely deny.
Sure you can say the same for thiests. Noone has physical or scientific proof that their specific diety is the one. That is where we get into faith and lack of. But I tell you that that is my proof. I do not think that an “accident” could provide emotions or beleiefs. Does the tree cry when it is struck? Does the grass fear when it hears the mower start?
Honestly, these are great questions, but it is hypocritical of you to exoect the answers from those you think foolish to begin with. Learn for yourself what the root of the faith is. Then if you will do not believe. But you cannot deny.
Dinsdale, thank you. I could not have done a better job at proving my accusations about some atheists’ debating skills than your post. You sir, are no longer worth my time.
Cajo, I believe that is open to interpretation (the bolding is mine for emphasis):
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Jhn 3:17 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
Jhn 3:18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Jhn 3:19 And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Jhn 3:20 For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
Jhn 3:21 But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.
I will agree on first reading it seems pretty clear. But a non fire and brimstone way to take this passage is:
“He who believes in the son of God shall dwell within the light of God, he that does not will be judged”
“The judgement shall be to live outside the light of God”
“He that does true (here is where it opens up) shall dwell in the light of god because all good comes from God”
This could be taken to imply that God will protect those that believe in him as well as those that do good, as they dwell in the light, whether they believe in him or not.
The passage does state that believers will go to heaven, but it seems to provide a loophole for non-believers to avoid Hell. In my opinion, damnation is probably the vaguest thing in the bible. I suppose that is to be expected from a book that has undergone the amount of translations and rewrites to update the language that the bible has.
-Beeblebrox
“Arthur,” said Ford
“Hello? Yes?” said Arthur.
“Just believe everything I tell you, and it will all be very, very simple.”
“Ah, well I’m not sure I believe that.”
Im sorry if somebody has already said this but…IMH(aetheist)O…their is no God, and all evil things that happen are mans, and mans only fault. To me, trying to blame a being that only 1(Christians)/5 the planet believe in is shite. How can one God be different than another??? If you do believe in God, maybe you should all agree on a universal God.
Allah, God, Jehovah, whatever, should all be part of one big Earth, even Universe religion. Maybe then that will stop stop all the wars on the planet that are currently caused by religion i.e. 99%.
No, I would probably be outraged. HOWEVER, if I were perfectly rational, I would be forced to admit that there might be some valid reason for your action, one that was not immediately obvious. If I were perfectly rational, I would withhold judgment until I could determine the reasons for your behavior.
From you,my good man. I consider that a compliment.
Pray for me. I need all the help I can get!
I guess I need to brush up on my debating skills to stick with you. What book do you suggest I continually refer to to irrefutably prove my chosen mindfuck?
Do you not see the contradiction between your first two statements and your last one? There are some athiests which I call “pious atheists” who assert that there is no God with as much faith as a believer. These people, however, do not constitute the whole of atheists. Painting with such a broad brush can only damage the discussion here. Please desist.
Thing is, a lot of us have an accurate understanding of Christian dogma and mythology – and we see the holes in it.
Without the possibility of evil/sin, there could be no free will. Okay, fine. And God is infinitely just, therefore He must exclude those who commit sins (which, due to Original Sin, includes everybody) from Heaven, unless said sinners dump their sins off onto His Son. Okay, fine. But why the heck doesn’t God make this set-up more obvious?! Does God really expect everybody to take the word of a 1900-year-old set of Greek manuscripts written by several factions, most of whom were at odds with each other and all of whom would qualify as a “cult” if they came into existence in the modern world?
I understand christianism. Because I’ve been brought up as a christian. Like most atheists. Extremely few christians have been atheists. None that I know of, actually. So, usually, the less informed about the others are the theists. I’ve read both the bible and the Koran, by the way.
Again : most atheist made a very informed decision because they were christians, were brought up as christians, were submitted to christian propaganda during their childhood, attended to the church, were surrounded by christians. How many christians have been in a similar situation concerning atheism? None. If someone made an informed decision despite being surrounded by the opposite teaching, it’s certainly the atheist, not the christian.
Apparently, despite supposedly reading a lot of atheist posts, you still didn’t get it. The one who make the claim must prove it. You say there’s a god? Proves it. I don’t make such claim.I’ve nothing to prove or disprove If you’re only reason to believe is that god can’t be disproven, then it’s the same with Zeus, with the Jupiterian, and with the Pink Unicorn. You can’t disprove them. So worship Zeus, the Jupiterians and the Pink unicorn.
And nor life nor love is a proof of god’s existence. humans have a brain. So, they feel. The origin of life is unknown, but there are scientific hypothesis about it. No need for a god. And as soon as there is a single cell, there isn’t any need for a god. I won’t go back to the evolution debate.
Though, it isn’t a lightning bolt, etc…let’s assume it is so. So there is an extremely thin chance that a lightning bolt create something which could eventually result in life.In the same way there is very few chance to win at the lottery. But if you play, say, 10 billions times, you’re pretty sure to win. There has been billions of lightning bolts striking the ocean each year during billions of year. More or less anything which has a non-zero likehood can happen if you wait long enough.
And concerning your feeling, you have a brain. Your dog too has a brain. And it can be affraid, for instance. It has feelings. You have a more complicated brain , so you have more complicated feelings
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This statement proves mainly that you don’t have any insight about atheism, contrarily, once again to the insight most atheists have about religion. I would say that the theists believe in the godliness of man, since they think that god made similar to him, that they have a soul, etc…In other words that they are in some way “special”. Atheists believe that we aren’t special in any way. We have a conscience, and it’s the only thing which differentiates us from the animals. After our death, we rot, like anything else. We don’t have some “special”, “divine” treatment like a paradise or any other similar stuff the theists believe they’re entitled to.
Some atheists believe that man is able to eventually find an answer to/understand anything, some don’t. I don’t. Some theists believe that we can eventually find an answer to everything since god give us the ability to understand the universe, some don’t. It has nothing to do with atheism.
And for the umpteenth time, most atheist like me understood and still understand perfectly the concept of god. And understand also that anyway there’s no need form such a being, no reason to believe in it, and that the christian faith in particular is absurd. If you don’t understand why, read my post about omnicient god + omnipotent god+ hell, for instance. But there are much more absurdities.
Yes, I do believe that. And if it walks like a dog, barks like a dog, looks like a dog, you’re free to believe that it’s nevertheless a duck. But you can count on me to point out that actually it’s a german shepherd.
Why should someone gives me the right to know something? Does someone gives you the right to know that the sky is blue? Or can you make this statement without prior authorization?
I can deny there is a god in the same way I can deny there are fairies. I’ve absolutely no evidence that such a thing as a god exists. I’ve absolutely no evidence that there are intelligent speaking cabbages in your garden . I deny there are intelligent speaking cabbages in your garden and I deny there is a god. Can you deny that Zeus exists? Why don’t you make the proper sacrifices to Him?
Yes. You rely on faith, even if it means believing absurd statements, like the fact that a guy who was actually god had to be killed in order for a sin to be cleaned by the same god who anyway had decided that there would be a sin at the first place since he’s omniscient and omnipotent.( By the way, next time he wants to erase some original sin, he should snap his fingers, it’s much easier than being born from a virgin and all this stuff). And who, when he’s no busy asking the Jews to slaughter everybody or being nailed on a piece of wood, torture his creatures with an infinite love.
And as I said before a dog howls when it’s hurt and is affraid when the cat jumps on it.
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I don’t expect any answers from them. I did learn what the faith is. The difference with you is that I learnt also that it was a nonsense. And I will agree not to deny that god exists once you’ll agree not to deny that I have speaking intelligent cabbages in my backyard.
(Couldn’t let this one go.) The people who go to heaven will have chosen to be with God. That’s, in fact, the whole point–to become people who will willfully choose to be with Him.
I am sorry but did you miss that statement? Or is it just that my opinions are not welcome here? I see alot of broad strokes all over this debate about Christians/thiests. I do not see you telling them to desist.
It doesn’t work to make an offensive statement and then say, “no offense.” Saying that you don’t want to blanket everyone after you’ve blanketed everyone doesn’t work either.
The whole issue comes down to perspective. It is evident that there is no God, which is actually proof that there is. I’d start to think there wasn’t a God if they found Noah’s Ark or some other piece of “evidence” because it would destroy all purpose of faith if God were proven to exist. So the lack of evidence proves that there is a God WHEN considered in conjunction with the fact that God answers the universal question “why?” God gives us a purpose and a series of guidelines to live by. Think about it. If everyone obeyed the commands of the bible, there would be no AIDS, there would be no lying, there would be an abundance of giving and never any taking, etc.
It’s true that atheists are relatively ignorant of the beliefs they try to refute. Some of the most basic beliefs of Christianity are never even analyzed by the majority of atheists, yet they adamantly argue about it. Take for example the famous question “Can God create a rock that even He can’t lift?” The answer is yes, however, He can lift that unliftable rock. Most people with an atheist mindset will say that is a paradox because they only look at the limited realms of human understanding. 150 years ago, it would have been considered a joke for man to walk on the moon because we knew that wouldn’t be possible. People once knew that the world was flat. Today people know that there is no God. Just as Christians craft their world around their “imaginary God,” you atheists craft your world around an “imaginary absence of a God.” Which is right? No one can prove or disprove either side, so they are equally valid in that light. It pisses me off, however, when either side thumbs their noses by “subtly” implying that their opposition lacks in intellgence.
Therefore, when you ask me to explain why God can allow one person’s life to be filled with agony, tragedy, and death, while another wins the lottery and lives a happy life with all the trimmings and yet He can make a fair judgment, you are forcing me to play God. I cannot tell you the specifics. I can tell you my personal theories, but I cannot play God and tell you why a specific teenaged girl was raped while another robbed a store and got away with it. Justice is supposed to come at judgment day, not in bits at a time and I don’t profess to be a judge.
Also, when any preacher emphasizes the power of God and the wrath of God to make his own point, he is using scripture out of context. Yes, God is powerful and even jealous and that is in the texts, but He is many other things before that. Notice I said “emphasizes.” He should not ignore it either, but there isn’t a point in emphasizing any one thing. I think we all have seen the overemphasis on God’s wrath.
When Falwell said “you helped this happen,” he should have said “we,” meaning all of mankind. Our corruption causes corruption. The bonding we see across America today is what was alcking before. I’ll take my share of the blame for that. The problem was that Falwell pointed the finger directly at specific groups and people, saying “you.” That make him the judge and not God. That’s the infuriating part.
And then. So, the good believer go to heaven and the good non-believer don’t go to hell.That situation will be eternal
Either there is no difference between the heaven and the non-hell, and believing is pointless.
Either the heaven is better than the non hell and the non-believer will be deprived from something forever and hence punished forever. Except that you’re not roasting, the concept is still the same : eternal punition.
So, we’re still left with an all-loving god punishing his creatures forever. And with all the usual issues : infinite punition for a finite fault, material impossibility for some to avoid this eternal punition (never heard of God, feeble-minded, etc…), omniscient god creating being he knows from the start will be punished forever and nevertheless choosing to create them, etc…
And anyway, you still send to hell some creatures (the evil ones), with similar issues.
Yes, indeed. We agree that John 3:16 can be interpreted in a fire-and-brimstone way, and a non fire-and-brimstone way**.
Wait – you mean God gave non-believers a Hell-avoidance loophole after giving His only son to be crucified? Again I say, it’s confusing to say the least.