[QUOTE=mhendo]
I did a bit of searching, and according to this NYT article:
Doesn’t make the bouncer any less of a dick, of course, but at least the restaurant didn’t actually steal from them.
[/QUOTE]
In this interview with Ms. Farmer, she says that they were forced to pay for food that had not yet been served to them. Not sure which of the three video segments she says it in, though.
[QUOTE=askeptic]
Torts was a long time ago for me but I seem to recall some need to allege a physical injury for NIED.
[/QUOTE]
I am taking wikipedia’s word for the fact that the injury need only be emotional, they do describe a tort (mental injury) which is recognized and which may result from some injury such as a loss of a limb. A different tort however.
[QUOTE=denquixote]
I am taking wikipedia’s word for the fact that the injury need only be emotional, they do describe a tort (mental injury) which is recognized and which may result from some injury such as a loss of a limb. A different tort however.
[/QUOTE]
Negligent Infliction of Emotional Distress
Negligently acting or not acting in a way that causes someone to endure emotional pain
There must be a connection between the wrongdoer’s conduct and the emotional distress
**To be successful in a lawsuit, the distress must result from a physical injury or be so egregious that it results in physical symptoms **
From here
[QUOTE=askeptic]
Negligent Infliction of Emotional Distress
Negligently acting or not acting in a way that causes someone to endure emotional pain
There must be a connection between the wrongdoer’s conduct and the emotional distress
**To be successful in a lawsuit, the distress must result from a physical injury or be so egregious that it results in physical symptoms **
From here
[/QUOTE]
She could always go for intentional distress, though, which doesn’t require physical symptoms. It’d be a bit tougher to prove, but the fact that the bouncer refused to look at her ID to establish her gender works in her favor.
[QUOTE=Miller]
She could always go for intentional distress, though, which doesn’t require physical symptoms. It’d be a bit tougher to prove, but the fact that the bouncer refused to look at her ID to establish her gender works in her favor.
[/QUOTE]
Restatement (Second) of Torts section 46 cmt. d (1965). The defendant’s conduct must be more than malicious and intentional; and liability does not extend to mere insults, indignities, threats, annoyances, or petty oppressions. Viehweg v. Vic Tanny Intern. of Missouri, Inc., 732 S.W.2d 212, 213
[QUOTE=askeptic]
Restatement (Second) of Torts section 46 cmt. d (1965). The defendant’s conduct must be more than malicious and intentional; and liability does not extend to mere insults, indignities, threats, annoyances, or petty oppressions. Viehweg v. Vic Tanny Intern. of Missouri, Inc., 732 S.W.2d 212, 213
[/QUOTE]
I still think she’s got a good case. Access to public restrooms was one of the major issues behind the Civil Rights Movement, and it appears (going by the interview I linked to above) that there’s a New York law specifically addressing restroom access for people who do not present a typical gender role. That might be enough to argue that the restaurant’s actions were more than a “petty oppression.”
In defence of the bar and the bouncer, I saw the picture and she looked immediately male to me.
Yes, we can all scrutinise and nitpick facial characteristics but she does not overtly look like a woman without makeup - she may not look like a woman with make-up on either.
That is beside the point.
Men are not allowed to go into Women’s toilets to prevent “things happening”, read into this rape.
So a woman who looks like a man complains that she gets kicked out of a restaurant toilet refuses to accept “an ID” as proof.
Is it not part and parcel of a Bouncer’s job to not only check ID age but also guage if the ID is valid.
“Yes I look like a man, but my generic ID I obtained through the US postal service gives me every right to be here”
My reckoning is that bouncer took Ms Farmer to be a man from the get go and demanded she leave the premesis. So maybe he isn’t that bright, but he is doing the job he is paid to do.
The alternative is letting men just walk on into Women’s restrooms on the grounds that the Hairy Assed Trucker look is this years Black and accept the consequences as “Poop happens”
[QUOTE=wendigo1974]
In defence of the bar and the bouncer, I saw the picture and she looked immediately male to me.
Yes, we can all scrutinise and nitpick facial characteristics but she does not overtly look like a woman without makeup - she may not look like a woman with make-up on either.
That is beside the point.
[/QUOTE]
No, THAT IS THE FUCKING POINT. There is no universally accepted perspective on what a woman looks like, or what a man looks like, or what a person born as a woman but identifies as a man looks like, or what a person who was born as a man but identifies as a woman looks like, or what a pre-op MtF transexual looks like, or what a post-op MtF transexual looks like, or what a pre-op FtM transexual looks like, or what a post-op FtM transexual looks like.
Yet we all have to go to the bathroom, don’t we? So if a woman cannot go to a restaurant and use a woman’s bathroom, that is a problem, and a problem that is only going to get more and more common unless people take their fucking heads out of their asses and WAKE THE FUCK UP.
ETA: Forgot which thread I was responding to, so I put all of the fucks back in.
Once you have finished getting all het up …
That men who claim to be women should be allowed free access to Women’s Restrooms?
Or that women who claim to be women that just look like men should be allowed free access to Women’s Restrooms?
If Women’s Restrooms were accessible to all it would make no difference.
However they aren’t for my above stated reasons which you CHOSE not to re-quote.
Stop swearing.
This is the pit, I can FUCKING swear if I FUCKING want to, and I want to because this could have been me, and it would have FUCKING PISSED ME THE FUCK OFF.
And I did not quote the tired gender-role-affirming crap in the rest of your post because I already stated that the solution is unisex bathrooms, and until there are unisex bathrooms, there damn well better be consequences to this kind of bullshit.
You say that men’s and women’s restrooms are separate so that men won’t rape women. Cite? While you’re at it, cite me some evidence that rape frequencies decrease due to segregated bathrooms. Take your time.
[QUOTE=mhendo]
No, she’s trying to dress in a way that makes her feel comfortable.
[/QUOTE]
That’s fine. But she needs to recognize that she dressing counter to accepted norms. And shouldn’t be surprised if smething like this occurs.
[QUOTE=mhendo]
And even if she were trying to look like a guy, so fucking what? Once she verified that she was, indeed, a woman, she should have been left to do her thing. No-one’s blaming the bouncer for investigating the situation in the first place, or for questioning her, but once she made clear that she was a woman that should have been the end of it.
[/QUOTE]
Agreed. He fucked up.
[QUOTE=mhendo]
For me, the most amazing thing (as already observed by Miller) is that a bouncer in a Greenwich Village restaurant could be such a drooling moron as to not know that some lesbians look and dress like that. And the woman who reported the “guy in the bathroom” is also some sort of retard.
[/QUOTE]
I disagree with the last sentence. If there is a man in woman’s bathroom and someone reports it, what have they done wrong?
[QUOTE=stretch]
Please tell me this is a whoosh so I can go back to thinking you’re just a regular idiot. Are you seriously blaming the victim here?
[/QUOTE]
Thanks for this. I needed a good laugh today.
[QUOTE=stretch]
Did you see the way she dresses? She’s trying to look like a man? For fuck’s sake, she’s trying to look like herself. She was born with that face and body, douchebag!
[/QUOTE]
Hahaha. Another good one. Yeah, but she wasn’t born wearing man’s clothing and an uncontrollable urge to dress counter to accepted norms.
[QUOTE=stretch]
I don’t wear makeup; I wear jeans and t-shirts every single day. When I had short hair, I was constantly being called a dyke. Was I asking for that because I am not feminine enough?
[/QUOTE]
Oh, now you’re a victim, too. Boo-fuckin-hoo. Bottom line is that if either sex, gay or straight, is first born not looking like the stereotype of what they are, and then chooses to adopt the look of the opposite sex, they shouldn’t be surprised nor condem society for assuming that 126,893rd person they saw that looked like an X was actually an X.
[QUOTE=stretch]
I guess some people do think we need to go back to women and men wearing certain styles of hair and clothing just so they can tell who they are dealing with. Heaven forbid that a woman should happen to look masculine and not try to girl herself up! She deserves to be treated shabbily.
[/QUOTE]
Shabbily? No. And the bouncer looks like he is guilty iof that here. But sheeze, no one she be fucking surprised or think that there’s a a conspiracy afoot. Especially in that bar in Greenwich Village. The area is as gay as the Castro in SF. Every business there is—has to be—supportive of the clientele.
[QUOTE=stretch]
Tool.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, I have one. And you?
[QUOTE=wendigo1974]
In defence of the bar and the bouncer, I saw the picture and she looked immediately male to me.
Yes, we can all scrutinise and nitpick facial characteristics but she does not overtly look like a woman without makeup - she may not look like a woman with make-up on either.
That is beside the point.
Men are not allowed to go into Women’s toilets to prevent “things happening”, read into this rape.
So a woman who looks like a man complains that she gets kicked out of a restaurant toilet refuses to accept “an ID” as proof.
Is it not part and parcel of a Bouncer’s job to not only check ID age but also guage if the ID is valid.
[/quote]
Did you read the articles, you dribbling fucking moron?
He didn’t even try to “guage [sic] if the ID is valid.” If it happened as she told it, he refused even to look at the ID. It could have been a United States passport for all he cared; he wasn’t interested in even trying to investigate the issue. He decided she had to leave, and that was it.
[QUOTE=wendigo1974]
“Yes I look like a man, but my generic ID I obtained through the US postal service gives me every right to be here”
My reckoning is that bouncer took Ms Farmer to be a man from the get go and demanded she leave the premesis. So maybe he isn’t that bright, but he is doing the job he is paid to do.
The alternative is letting men just walk on into Women’s restrooms on the grounds that the Hairy Assed Trucker look is this years Black and accept the consequences as “Poop happens”
[/QUOTE]
Is a village missing it’s idiot?
No-one is arguing that men should be allowed to just walk into women’s restrooms. And every single person in this thread, as far as i can tell, believes that it was fine for the bouncer to investigate the situation once he was informed that someone looking like a man had entered the women’s bathroom. No-one is criticizing him for checking it out, and even Ms. Farmer admits that she is quite frequently mistaken for a man. I’m sure her skin is thick enough to deal with the mistaken identity part. It’s the fact that no genuine effort was made to confirm the suspicions about her identity that is the ridiculous part of this incident.
And, just because i can: Fuck, shit, cunt.
How many ways does it need to be said? She wasn’t surprised at the mistaken identity. She’s made that clear in dozens of interviews.
But she has a right to be surprised when some black-t-shirted ape, refusing to use the level of common sense that we can reasonably expect from an 11-year-old, would not even consider that he might be mistaken about her sex, and refused even to look at ID that might have confirmed her story.
It’s not that he was tough to convince, or that he expressed some excessive skepticism. He showed no inclination at all to even consider that things might be different than they appeared. And the fact that he works in a Village restaurant—and that this incident occurred during a Gay Pride parade, for fuck’s sake—makes his stupidity about this particular issue even harder to believe.
[QUOTE=Miller]
Yes, I’ve seen how she dresses. That’s kinda the point. Women should be allowed to dress how they want, and shouldn’t be punished or discriminated against because they don’t appear sufficiently feminine. I don’t blame the bouncer for making the initial mistake. I do blame him, and his employers, for how he handled the situation after that mistake was made.
I think “punished” and “discriminated against” are way over the top, but I agree with the rest.
[QUOTE=magellan01]
Bottom line is that if either sex, gay or straight, is first born not looking like the stereotype of what they are, and then chooses to adopt the look of the opposite sex, they shouldn’t be surprised nor condem society for assuming that 126,893rd person they saw that looked like an X was actually an X.
[/QUOTE]
Can you point me to where these “looks of the opposite sex” are defined? Here’s a clue: YOU CAN’T.
And we sure as hell can and will be surprised, disappointed, vocal and condemning of a society that makes such assumptions.
[QUOTE=ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]
No, THAT IS THE FUCKING POINT. There is no universally accepted perspective on what a woman looks like, or what a man looks like, or what a person born as a woman but identifies as a man looks like, or what a person who was born as a man but identifies as a woman looks like, or what a pre-op MtF transexual looks like, or what a post-op MtF transexual looks like, or what a pre-op FtM transexual looks like, or what a post-op FtM transexual looks like.
[/QUOTE]
No, there isn’t a universally accepted perspective. Why are you so bold as to assume that yours is the correct one?
[QUOTE=mhendo]
But she has a right to be surprised when some black-t-shirted ape, refusing to use the level of common sense that we can reasonably expect from an 11-year-old, would not even consider that he might be mistaken about her sex, and refused even to look at ID that might have confirmed her story.
It’s not that he was tough to convince, or that he expressed some excessive skepticism. He showed no inclination at all to even consider that things might be different than they appeared. And the fact that he works in a Village restaurant—and that this incident occurred during a Gay Pride parade, for fuck’s sake—makes his stupidity about this particular issue even harder to believe.
[/QUOTE]
I’ve said, more than once now, that the bouncer made a mistake in doing that.
The fact that this happened where it did indicates to me that we are not getting the whole story. If this happened in some Pittsburgh steel town, I’d be more inclined to accept her portrayal of the events. But this area, and I’ve been to this bar, is gay central. I can’t beleive that an establishment in the area would be hostile to the people there. Especially one that’s been there for quite some time and has no (as far as I know) history of similar behavior. This, I think is an exampleof one guy making a bad decision—maybe he was hurried, maybe he thought the ID would be fake, maybe he hates dykey women—and no this woman wants to cause as much of a stir as possible to get as much mopney as possible.
[QUOTE=Carol Stream]
No, there isn’t a universally accepted perspective. Why are you so bold as to assume that yours is the correct one?
[/QUOTE]
What
the
fuck
So I’m not the person who decides what is the “correct” way to look for myself? You do realize that is the diarrhea that is dripping from your words.
I am NOT saying that the way I dress is “correct” for anyone else but me, and she was not going into that bathroom to abduct women and force them to wear button-down shirts and chinos.
[QUOTE=magellan01]
I’ve said, more than once now, that the bouncer made a mistake in doing that.
[/quote]
Yet you also keep saying that she “shouldn’t be surprised if something like this occurs.” If the bouncer did something that you agree was wrong and stupid, why shouldn’t she be surprised?
[QUOTE=magellan01]
The fact that this happened where it did indicates to me that we are not getting the whole story. If this happened in some Pittsburgh steel town, I’d be more inclined to accept her portrayal of the events. But this area, and I’ve been to this bar, is gay central. I can’t beleive that an establishment in the area would be hostile to the people there. Especially one that’s been there for quite some time and has no (as far as I know) history of similar behavior. This, I think is an example of one guy making a bad decision—maybe he was hurried, maybe he thought the ID would be fake, maybe he hates dykey women—and no this woman wants to cause as much of a stir as possible to get as much money as possible.
[/QUOTE]
It is entirely possible that there is more to this story. What “more” there might be will probably come to light if and when this gets to court.
I’m curious, though, as to why you seem to be imputing the worst possible motives to her (i.e., that’s she’s nothing more than a money-grubbing attention seeker), and are willing to believe the absolute best of the restaurant.
I mean, you say it was probably just one man making a mistake, but surely the bouncer wouldn’t have been allowed to order her to pay her check and leave all on his own? Wouldn’t a decision like that have to go through a manager? And if not, then the restaurant needs to seriously look at its supervisory structure, at a minimum.
[QUOTE=ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]
Can you point me to where these “looks of the opposite sex” are defined? Here’s a clue: YOU CAN’T.
[/QUOTE]
This might be the dumbest thing I’ve ever seen on the boards. And that’s saying soemthing! So, congratulations. Are they written down in a book of laws? No. But most of us have seen a catalog or two that tend to reflect those norms. But the non-idiots among us—in fact, even the run-of-the-mill idiots—can correctly identify a man or a woman roughly 99.9999999% of the time. How about this, we go into Manhattan and I point people out and you identify their sex. For every one you get right, I give you a dollar. For every one you get wrong you give me 100 dollars. Do you think you might have quite a bit of dough by the end of the day? I certainly hope so. If not, you may be the one they’ve been looking for: King Idiot.
[QUOTE=ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]
And we sure as hell can and will be surprised, disappointed, vocal and condemning of a society that makes such assumptions.
[/QUOTE]
I hope you and those in your Kingdom have a lot of time on your hands then. Because pretty much every society has these norms.