[QUOTE=mhendo]
Yet you also keep saying that she “shouldn’t be surprised if something like this occurs.” If the bouncer did something that you agree was wrong and stupid, why shouldn’t she be surprised?
[/QUOTE]
She, nor no one on these boards she be surprised that she gets mistaken for a man. So she shouldn’t be surprised that she got questioned, but she has a right to be surprised that she was not given the opportunity to verify her sex. The person in the story seems to agree with us. There are some on these boards who seem to be of the opinion that how dare we stereotype “females” or accept that their are sociatel norms for dress that differ among the sexes.
[QUOTE=mhendo]
It is entirely possible that there is more to this story. What “more” there might be will probably come to light if and when this gets to court.
[/QUOTE]
Agreed.
[QUOTE=mhendo]
I’m curious, though, as to why you seem to be imputing the worst possible motives to her (i.e., that’s she’s nothing more than a money-grubbing attention seeker), and are willing to believe the absolute best of the restaurant.
[/QUOTE]
I read most of the links offered, including the one that goes to the statement on the Caliente Cab Co.'s website, and that’s where I come out. I should say though, that I will not be surprised if the real people pushing this are the lawyers who see $$$$$$.
[QUOTE=mhendo]
I mean, you say it was probably just one man making a mistake, but surely the bouncer wouldn’t have been allowed to order her to pay her check and leave all on his own? Wouldn’t a decision like that have to go through a manager? And if not, then the restaurant needs to seriously look at its supervisory structure, at a minimum.
[/QUOTE]
Well, some bouncers are manager types. Some bars, particularly if they’re busy, will not undermine the bouncer.
[QUOTE=Fetchund]
So, YOU need to start re-thinking your gender stereotypes. Just because YOU made an gender assumption based on your narrow world view, don’t assume motivations you don’t know are true.
I’m in Bizarro Land. I’m perfectly content digestiing the world in a way that the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of those I share a society with do, and I have a narrow world view? Have you lost your mind?
You can be whoever yu are or want to be. But don’t be surprised if people view you, at least initially, based on NORMS. Why do you think they’re called that?
Tell me where and how I’m supposed to use the restroom when at a public place or within a business with restroom facilities in your world view.
Am I supposed to subscribe to these transient and subjective constructs that you call “norms” in order to take a fucking piss in peace? Am I supposed to wait until there is no one else in the restroom and no one who could see me, both on the way in and on the way out? Am I supposed to lift my feet off of the floor while I’m taking a piss, in case someone comes in, sits in the next stall, happens to see my shoes and think they must belong to a man because they aren’t high-heels?
Let’s hear how you think situations like this can be avoided.
[QUOTE=ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]
And I did not quote the tired gender-role-affirming crap in the rest of your post because I already stated that the solution is unisex bathrooms, and until there are unisex bathrooms, there damn well better be consequences to this kind of bullshit.
[/QUOTE]
Why should there be unisex bathrooms, if 99.9% of the population doesn’t want them?
[QUOTE=ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]
Tell me where and how I’m supposed to use the restroom when at a public place or within a business with restroom facilities in your world view.
Am I supposed to subscribe to these transient and subjective constructs that you call “norms” in order to take a fucking piss in peace? Am I supposed to wait until there is no one else in the restroom and no one who could see me, both on the way in and on the way out? Am I supposed to lift my feet off of the floor while I’m taking a piss, in case someone comes in, sits in the next stall, happens to see my shoes and think they must belong to a man because they aren’t high-heels?
Let’s hear how you think situations like this can be avoided.
[/QUOTE]
Which part of the situation. If you’re of one sex and don’t look sterrotypically like that sex, and then adopt the dress and look of the opposite sex and are questioned, I see nothing wrong with that. Now if you are a woman, I think you should use the women’s room. Just don’t be so fucking high and might or so touchy if you’re questioned. On the establishment side, employees shold be aware of how to handle these problems. Most place will not have this come up, as evidenced by how rarely they do come up. I think establishments in areas with a large gay population handle it pretty well, save this incident. I’m sure she was not the first butchy women to use the woman’s room, yet this is the only time, that we are aware of, that something went wrong. Right?
No high heels might be a little over the top, but some nice nails and a manicure surely couldn’t hurt.
Who is the “high and mighty” one again in this questioning scenario? It seems pretty damn high and mighty, to me, for someone to assume that I am so unaware of my surroundings that I don’t know what bathroom I’m in.
When I’m “questioned” I either make eye contact and say in a clear, slow, easily understandable monotone that I know exactly what restroom I’m in, and that perhaps the questioner should consider adjusting her preconceived stereotypes, or I laugh at her, depending on the level of indignant tone that may or may not accompany the questioning.
If it ever happens that I’m asked to leave by the employees/owners of a business that I am patronizing, as I’ve said in the other thread, I would quite possibly end up being arrested.
I’d tell you what you can do with your manicure, but we’re in the pit, and Carol Stream might get offended.
[QUOTE=ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]
Who is the “high and mighty” one again in this questioning scenario? It seems pretty damn high and mighty, to me, for someone to assume that I am so unaware of my surroundings that I don’t know what bathroom I’m in.
When I’m “questioned” I either make eye contact and say in a clear, slow, easily understandable monotone that I know exactly what restroom I’m in, and that perhaps the questioner should consider adjusting her preconceived stereotypes, or I laugh at her, depending on the level of indignant tone that may or may not accompany the questioning.
If it ever happens that I’m asked to leave by the employees/owners of a business that I am patronizing, as I’ve said in the other thread, I would quite possibly end up being arrested.
I’d tell you what you can do with your manicure, but we’re in the pit, and Carol Stream might get offended.
[/QUOTE]
A little advice, seriousl: ease the fuck up. You’re asking people to adjust some ingrained beliefs. Fine, if that’s what you want to do. But most people live within norms, without even thinkiing about it. No need to take it personally. Really. In fact, you’ll do the cause you’ve evidently taken on much greater service by being nicer, more understanding, than by allowing yourself to be written off as some angry bull dyke.
[QUOTE= CTTDSWHC]
When I’m “questioned” I either make eye contact and say in a clear, slow, easily understandable monotone that I know exactly what restroom I’m in, and that perhaps the questioner should consider adjusting her preconceived stereotypes, or I laugh at her, depending on the level of indignant tone that may or may not accompany the questioning.
[/QUOTE]
Oh, please tell me you are kidding, because I do like your posting in general, but this is over the top.
If you are deliberately using the restroom that does not correspond to your gender, and you are using that restroom for any reason other than “the restroom that corresponds to my gender was full and I must use the restroom immediately,” then you are making trouble solely for the sake of trouble.
There is a difference between healthy and unhealthy gender distinction.
“Barefoot & Pregnant” is an unhealthy gender distinction.
“Men and women are different and excretory functions should be segregated” is NOT .
Why the heck WOULD you use the men’s restroom when the women’s would be as convenient and as accommodating? To make a “statement?” Some statements don’t need to be made. This comes across as teenage.
[QUOTE=Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]
Oh, please tell me you are kidding, because I do like your posting in general, but this is over the top.
If you are deliberately using the restroom that does not correspond to your gender, and you are using that restroom for any reason other than “the restroom that corresponds to my gender was full and I must use the restroom immediately,” then you are making trouble solely for the sake of trouble.
There is a difference between healthy and unhealthy gender distinction.
“Barefoot & Pregnant” is an unhealthy gender distinction.
“Men and women are different and excretory functions should be segregated” is NOT .
Why the heck WOULD you use the men’s restroom when the women’s would be as convenient and as accommodating? To make a “statement?” Some statements don’t need to be made. This comes across as teenage.
[/QUOTE]
I suspect some whooshing is amiss. I am a woman, a lesbian, I am often “sir’d”, I often encounter women in the rest room who think I’m in the wrong place, and the linked story resonates with me because of the “that could’ve been me” factor.
That is the “questioning” scenario that was being discussed above.
However, I will point out that there is a whole sea of other situations involving gender-bending and bathroom facilities (such as the scenarios you refer to) that could also be avoided with unisex bathrooms.
Maybe it’s me, but I think a few people in this thread are confused as to why other parts of the world have more unisex bathrooms. European Dopers can correct me if I’m wrong, but I think it’s usually size requirements of many bars that means there’s only going to be room for a couple of 1 person at a time bathrooms and thus it makes sense to make them bisexual but it’s not like that Asimov robot story you’re all probably thinking of.
There’s pretty much nothing on the “Unisex bathroom” wikipedia site, but there’s a lengthier “Gender and Public Toilets” section of the “Toilet” wikipedia page, but it is US-specific.
Anecdotal commentary/debate here (one poster testifies that unisex bathrooms were common when he was in Korea).
[QUOTE=askeptic]
Let me get this straight Cookies, you look like a dude then act like an asshole when a woman mistakes you for a dude in the womens restroom?
[/QUOTE]
Whether I “look like a dude” is entirely subjective, in my experience. I’m 5’10. I’m on the heavy side. I have short hair. I wear “androgynous” clothes. However, I have large breasts, and my voice is not low in timbre.
I get “sir’d” on occasion, but not all the time. Women do double takes (or check the bathroom door, or suggest that I check the bathroom door) on occasion, but not all the time.
So, you tell me. Define “look like a dude” and “act like an asshole” in a way that will make everyone happy.
Anecdotal commentary/debate here (one poster testifies that unisex bathrooms were common when he was in Korea).
I’ll continue to look around.
[/QUOTE]
Just thought I’d point out that your Korean unisex bathroom descriptions aren’t encouraging as far as a goal for North America. They also re-enforce my point that unisex bathrooms throughout the world are almost always implemented as a matter of space or economics, (eta) rather than as a concession to the change in perception of gender identification.
