Goddamn fucking right she should sue!!!!!!!!!

The BBQ Pit
161

[QUOTE=ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]
Not everyone who experiences such misunderstandings is “standing up and challenging” in such a manner, and trying to define what exactly it means to be willfully challenging gender norms is yet another area where such definitions are not possible, imho.

You have seen the examples that myself and others have shared (in this thread and the original), yes? Working on a ranch, etc…
[/QUOTE]

Here again the continuum exists, in that the ‘norm’ is specifically subjective but generally OBjective. It seems to me that by not falling within the parameters what society defines as “normal”, that you are, by default, standing up and challenging. It may not be defiantly, but it is still a challenge to the norm.

I have seen the examples and believe me, I’m on your side here, but no matter how you slice it, if you take a hundred random people and show them pictures of
the entire spectrum of female-ness, from Marylyn Monroe to, say, Rosie O’Donnell the majority would likely cite Marylyn as the example of femininity.

162

[QUOTE=magellan01]
I think that everyone agrees that the bouncer fucked up by not lookiing at her ID and letting that be the determinant of her sex.
[/quote]

Everyone except wendigo, apparently.

My guess is that a man who refuses to leave the women’s restroom is probably guilty of disturbing the peace (or whatever the equivalent in NYC is). I don’t believe that a man who refuses to leave the women’s room has a claim under the city’s civil rights law.

163

I’ve been a bouncer and if I was hauling a guy out of the women’s bathroom (as I understood the case to be) I’d ignore him if he said he’d show me an ID. I’d be worried he’d punch me when I reached for it.

If I realized it was a woman I’d apologize like it was going out of style, but if I believed truly it was a man, that chick would standing in the parking lot as fast as I could make it happen.

And that lady (from the pictures at least) doesn’t look at all feminine. At least to my eyes, so it’s certainly possible that someone could be genuinely confused by her look. It’s a shitty situation but I’d say it isn’t worth suing over.

Just my opinion mind you.

164

[QUOTE=Lobohan]
I’ve been a bouncer and if I was hauling a guy out of the women’s bathroom (as I understood the case to be) I’d ignore him if he said he’d show me an ID. I’d be worried he’d punch me when I reached for it.

If I realized it was a woman I’d apologize like it was going out of style, but if I believed truly it was a man, that chick would standing in the parking lot as fast as I could make it happen.

And that lady (from the pictures at least) doesn’t look at all feminine. At least to my eyes, so it’s certainly possible that someone could be genuinely confused by her look. It’s a shitty situation but I’d say it isn’t worth suing over.

Just my opinion mind you.
[/QUOTE]

I agree with this. My guess is that something like this is what actually took place. I don’t think that bar, in that area, would have employees who would have a big problem with butchy lesbians or cross-dressing males. For whatever reason, the bouncer wanted to hurry her out and fucked up in the process. He deserves three demerits and a talking to. The woman deserves an apology, a free dinner and a C. C. C. T-shirt. If they (her or her lawyer) want anything else, as they evidently do, I’d withold the dinner and the T-shirt.

165

[QUOTE=Lobohan]
And that lady (from the pictures at least) doesn’t look at all feminine.

[/QUOTE]

Watch the video with her being interviewed about the traumatic event- She doesn’t sound feminine at all.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and sounds like a duck…

166

…it deserves to be treated like a menace/threat, even though it is indeed not a duck.

That is such a compelling argument. How have I not understood it before? :rolleyes:

167

[QUOTE=magellan01]
For whatever reason, the bouncer wanted to hurry her out and fucked up in the process.
[/QUOTE]

That doesn’t seem to be it. If he was in a hurry to get her outside, he wouldn’t have brought her upstairs, and had her pay for her appetizers. Also, if he’s a bouncer in Greenwich Village bar, he’s a fucking idiot for not considering that this person could very well be a woman. For that matter, so was the patron who complained.

168

[QUOTE=saoirse]
That doesn’t seem to be it. If he was in a hurry to get her outside, he wouldn’t have brought her upstairs, and had her pay for her appetizers. Also, if he’s a bouncer in Greenwich Village bar, he’s a fucking idiot for not considering that this person could very well be a woman. For that matter, so was the patron who complained.
[/QUOTE]

Well, it does some clear that the bouncer fucked up. Why? I don’t know. But the perosn who reported this did nothing wrong. This person saw what absolutley looks like a guy go into the women’s room. THat’s it. I might have done the same thing. Would you blame this person for doing something wrong if it turned out to be an actual guy who had entered?

169

[QUOTE=wendigo1974]
No, you tell me where a bouncer kicking a “man” out of a female toilet is a bad thing.
[/quote]

A bouncer’s kicking a man out of the women’s room is not a bad thing.

This bouncer did not kick a man out the women’s room. He kicked out a woman.

Because it is highly unlikely that the vast majority of men, when asked to leave the women’s room, are going to say that they are a woman and offer to show ID to prove it.

I am at the point now where I think you understand this distinction and you are simply seeking to wind people up. No more food for you.

170

[QUOTE=magellan01]
Well, it does some clear that the bouncer fucked up. Why? I don’t know. But the perosn who reported this did nothing wrong. This person saw what absolutley looks like a guy go into the women’s room. THat’s it. I might have done the same thing. Would you blame this person for doing something wrong if it turned out to be an actual guy who had entered?
[/QUOTE]

It would depend on where it happened. If you’re in a neighborhood that is well-known for being a place where people’s apprearance may not correspond to their actual sex, then perhaps you should not jump to conclusions. If you’re in a bar in Greenwich Village, and an apparent man goes into the ladies’, what’s the more likely explanation?

171

[QUOTE=saoirse]
It would depend on where it happened. If you’re in a neighborhood that is well-known for being a place where people’s apprearance may not correspond to their actual sex, then perhaps you should not jump to conclusions. If you’re in a bar in Greenwich Village, and an apparent man goes into the ladies’, what’s the more likely explanation?
[/QUOTE]

I truly don’t know which is more likely. But it’s not simply a matter of which is more likely. If someone identified as a man walks into the ladies’ room and it turns out to be a woman, no big deal, right. If it is actually a guy, that might lead to some ugliness that is best avoided. The patron didn’t “jump” to any conclusion as I see it. Instead, he(she?) thought she saw a male enter the ladies’ room and did the responsible thing: she let the establishment know. I would say that his (hers) not doing so would be uncaring and irresponsible. and that area, although it has a lot of gays, still has a lot of straight people. Now if this was inside what was known to be a 1005 gay bar like Moby Dick’s in SF (seriously), I’d be more inclined to agree with you. Plus, maybe the person was not from the area and wasn’t as aware of the range of dress one might find in a gay area. And the woman does look like a dude. No, I proportion zero blame to the patron, all of it to the bouncer. Because if he would have just looked at her license and let that be the final word, we’re not having this discussion. Well, who knows, there still might have been a lawsuit in an attempt to sooth the delicate feelings of the easily offended.

172

[QUOTE=saoirse]
That doesn’t seem to be it. If he was in a hurry to get her outside, he wouldn’t have brought her upstairs, and had her pay for her appetizers. Also, if he’s a bouncer in Greenwich Village bar, he’s a fucking idiot for not considering that this person could very well be a woman. For that matter, so was the patron who complained.
[/QUOTE]

I disagree with this, in part. I’ve not been to Greenwich Village, but I’d say that it’s less on the patron (who may well have been a tourist, I dunno) and more on the bouncer to know the score. I’ve been a bouncer, and you’ve got to know your environment, if you bounce in a gay bar, you ought to know, but then again, if the bouncer is, perhaps; a) From Brooklyn b) not as familiar with the place he’s working because he’s maybe c) new on the job then you have a recipe for what happened.

173

[QUOTE=saoirse]
That doesn’t seem to be it. If he was in a hurry to get her outside, he wouldn’t have brought her upstairs, and had her pay for her appetizers. Also, if he’s a bouncer in Greenwich Village bar, he’s a fucking idiot for not considering that this person could very well be a woman. For that matter, so was the patron who complained.
[/QUOTE]

The bar was owed money, first you pay, THEN we toss you out on your ass. That’s how it works.

174

[QUOTE=buttonjockey308]
The bar was owed money, first you pay, THEN we toss you out on your ass. That’s how it works.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I get that. However, a previous poster thought that the bouncer was just trying to get the woman out as quick as possible, and therefore didn’t have time to look at the ID. Obviously there was no hurry, though.

Even if she was a tourist, this was after a Pride parade, wasn’t it? I mean I am not the most cosmopolitan individual myself, but I would have started with the assumption that it was a woman.

175

[QUOTE=Otto at 11.21AM (7 hours)]
A bouncer’s kicking a man out of the women’s room is not a bad thing.

This bouncer did not kick a man out the women’s room. He kicked out a woman.
Because it is highly unlikely that the vast majority of men, when asked to leave the women’s room, are going to say that they are a woman and offer to show ID to prove it.

I am at the point now where I think you understand this distinction and you are simply seeking to wind people up. No more food for you.
[/QUOTE]

Is there any particular reason where there is a 7 hour time difference in this reponse to comments I made at 04.03PM yesterday.

As opposed to the this response at 05.56PM

[QUOTE=Otto]
Everyone except wendigo, apparently.
[/quote]

Where I just get brushed off.

Did you have an epiphany Otto, thought you would go in with more Vim and Vigour … thought you had missed your chance perhaps?

Why did you choose to single me out again to vent your spleen 7 hours later, was it because I didn’t rise to your bait.

Would the reason be the subsequent posters who turned up and said kicking her out was actually the reasonable thing to do the thing that drove you to it.

I have no control over them Otto, the fact they came to the same conclusion I did is no reason to have a hissy fit at me.

Your also fortunate that baiting and implying trollmanship is fully legit in the Pit.

Downside is I get to call you on it in Public.

176

[QUOTE=Lobohan]
I’ve been a bouncer and if I was hauling a guy out of the women’s bathroom (as I understood the case to be) I’d ignore him if he said he’d show me an ID. I’d be worried he’d punch me when I reached for it.

If I realized it was a woman I’d apologize like it was going out of style, but if I believed truly it was a man, that chick would standing in the parking lot as fast as I could make it happen.
[/QUOTE]
Exhibit A for those who believe bouncers tend to be morons.

And Exhibit A for non-moron bouncers to point to and say “We’re not all that fucking stupid.”

177

[QUOTE=mhendo]
Exhibit A for those who believe bouncers tend to be morons.

And Exhibit A for non-moron bouncers to point to and say “We’re not all that fucking stupid.”
[/QUOTE]

Not all bouncers are created equal. :smiley:

I wonder what it was I said that was unreasonable?

178

[QUOTE=Lobohan]
Not all bouncers are created equal. :smiley:

I wonder what it was I said that was unreasonable?
[/QUOTE]

Chiefly, this:

[QUOTE=Lobohan]
I’ve been a bouncer and if I was hauling a guy out of the women’s bathroom (as I understood the case to be) I’d ignore him if he said he’d show me an ID. I’d be worried he’d punch me when I reached for it.
[/QUOTE]

Great system there:

  1. I accuse you of wrongdoing.
  2. Don’t even try to prove me wrong, because you’re probably going to “punch me.”

And you can’t say for certain that you would “know” it was a guy; many in this thread have commented extensively with barely disguised snickers about the androgyny or mannishness of the female subject in question.

Seriously, think about what you said. Why not apply it to any situation:

Hypothetical Cop: “I pulled them over and arrested them for not having a license. I didn’t let them reach for their wallet to show me they had one, because they might have punched me.”

And no, not all bouncers are stupid. I know a fairly sharp guy who posts on my message board who is a bouncer.

179

[QUOTE=Lobohan]
Not all bouncers are created equal. :smiley:

I wonder what it was I said that was unreasonable?
[/QUOTE]
What Una said, pretty much.

Someone, like a bouncer, whose job is to keep order, should always be willing to listen to reasonable explanations, and should use physical means as a last resort. The first action you mention in your post is “hauling a guy out,” but if your first action upon encountering a problem like this is to “haul someone out,” then you’re a bad bouncer, period.

In a situation like the one being discussed in this thread, your first action upon entering the bathroom and seeing someone you assume to be a man is to ask, “What are you doing in the ladies’ room?”

If the person in question is, indeed, a man, and has no reasonable explanation, then you tell him to get his ass out of the ladies’ room. If he refuses to comply, then you get physical.

If the person in question says, “I belong in here. It’s the women’s bathroom, and i’m a woman,” you then either take her word for it, or express some skepticism and ask her if she can verify that fact. That’s when you get to see the ID.

Refusal even to look at the profferred evidence marked that Greenwich Village bouncer as a moron, and it sounds like you might be cut from the same cloth.

As Una said, not all bouncers are stupid. But some sure do their best to maintain the stereotype.

180

Yes, well I guess because Una and mhendo are so smart they can sit back and calculate best bar management. Because you’ve both dealt with annoying co-workers, you know the smartest way to physically throw out a weirdo.

Or maybe you are both a couple of brainiacs who couldn’t recognize a normal bar room extraction if it got thrown right past you. I’ve been thrown out of bars. Your pathetic cries of “but I can prove it” fall on violently deaf ears.