Godwin for the gander - Senator Durbin shoots his fucking mouth off...

[UncleBeer]

What the fuck are you smoking, newscrasher?

Here’s your post #78 in this thread:
Can anyone tell me what the torture techniques at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib are?

What? We’re supposed to believe you were asking for some fictional bullshit instead of a reputable citation? I don’t fucking think so.

And here’s a portion of Diogenes response to your request (that you say doesn’t exist) in his post #97 (which also you say doesn’t exist):
Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.
Chemical light = glowstick.

Here’s Diogene’s source linked in post #97:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prisoner_abuse
Goddamn, the obtuse are thicker than flies on shit around here today.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Shodan

Well, I rather doubt that some, and several Dopers in particular, are going to be deterred from attacking everything and anything the Bush administration does by anything as mundane as independent facts.

We are all relieved that none, and particularly no Dopers, will be deterred from defending anything the Bush administration does by anything as mundane as independent facts.

And ISTM that some responsibility accrues to “independent agencies” like Amnesty International not to blow holes in their credibility by making exaggerations. And I would say the same about the Dems, the rather strained efforts to parse this latest nonsense from Durbin as something other than what it is notwithstanding.

Key word here is “some.” The exaggeration on the part of Durbin, Amnesty, et al is bad, yes, but it is chickenshit compared to what they’re complaining about. For every paragraph spent criticizing them for overstepping an analogy, you should be writing ten pages on the atrocities that their overstepped analogy was so rightly excoriating.

Daniel

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@UncleBeer

What the fuck are you smoking, newscrasher?

Here’s your post #78 in this thread:
Can anyone tell me what the torture techniques at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib are?

What? We’re supposed to believe you were asking for some fictional bullshit instead of a reputable citation? I don’t fucking think so.

And here’s a portion of Diogenes response to your request (that you say doesn’t exist) in his post #97 (which also you say doesn’t exist):
Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.
Chemical light = glowstick.

Here’s Diogene’s source linked in post #97:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prisoner_abuse
Goddamn, the obtuse are thicker than flies on shit around here today.

I’m kind of amazed that I’m being defended by Unclebeer, but thanks for the help and for the legwork reposting the cites.

[elucidator]

Unc has his moments, more of a curmudgeon than a partisan. Course, he’s not a man of “impeccable character”, but he is a character, so that counts for something.

[dropzone]

And well-groomed, if not impeccable. It should count for something.

[Apos]

Bill frist now claims that Durbin said that Gitmo was a “death camp” and that our soldiers were committing “committing genocide and war crimes.” I wonder if Moto will now condemn these overblown distortions that allude to Nazis.

[John_Mace]

I heard that Durbin issue a clarification of sorts today, saying he didn’t mean to compare US soldiers to NAZIs. Good for him. Couldn’t find a link, but heard it on the news today.

[RedFury]

Senator regrets if remarks misunderstood

“My statement in the Senate was critical of the policies of this Administration, which add to the risk our soldiers face,” he said in a statement released Friday afternoon. “I have learned from my statement that historical parallels can be misused and misunderstood. I sincerely regret if what I said caused anyone to misunderstand my true feelings: Our soldiers around the world and their families at home deserve our respect, admiration and total support.”

[Mr.Moto]

@Mockingbird

I find it interesting that Mr. Moto can be quick to pit Senator Durbin for this and when Senator Frist claims he never made a diagnosis on Terri Schaivo from videotape, a lie isn’t called out by him.

So, is Mr. Moto trying to tell us that there’s a double standard and that his party can lie and not be held accountable for it, but a reasonable characterization by the opposition of a situation can be spun into something it wasn’t and is acceptable?

I didn’t see fit to comment very much on the Terry Schiavo case at all, so it wouldn’t be reasonable to interpret any comments I made about Frist on the subject one way or the other.

I’ve only posted to this board 4,000 times or so, so I can hardly have covered all of the world’s topics. Sorry.

@mhendo

Even funnier is the case of Rick Santorum (R-PA). When Robert Byrd (D-WV) made a reference to Nazi tactics in the debate over the filibuster, Santorum accused him of “lessen[ing] the decorum of the Senate.” Then, a couple of months later, Santorum did exactly the same thing, making the Hitler connection in the filibuster debate.

Well, this one I did comment upon. I criticized Santorum for doing so at the time, since this rhetoric isn’t helpful from anyone at any time.

@Mr. Moto

…the tendency of rhetoric to become overheated is not limited to one party. Republican’s aren’t immune to this, not by a long shot.

I hope [Santorum] retracts this. While I’m sure this was just an unfortunate rhetorical lapse, these need to be cleared up if they happen.

[Mr.Moto]

I’m happy to see that the Senator came to regret his unfortunate rhetoric. Good for him. I shall not criticize him further on this issue.

We all have said things that later require clarification or retraction, and decent people allow others to do so.

There are some in this thread who might learn from Senator Durbin’s example, but I’m not holding my breath.

[The_Tooth]

Out of curiosity, how does criticizing policy add to the dangers soldiers face? Is the opposite true? Does endorsing policy remove soldiers from danger? Is a dream really just a wish your heart makes, or is it something more?

[furt]

I wonder if this might be mentioned in the 2006 elections?

Strike that, I know the answer.

What I don’t know: will Bricker be buying a car or putting a new wing on the house?

[Zoe]

Mr. Moto: I’m happy to see that the Senator came to regret his unfortunate rhetoric. Good for him. I shall not criticize him further on this issue.

Did he say he regretted his statement? (I honestly don’t know since I haven’t read today’s comment.) Did he say that he misued the parallel? Did he say that it was “unfortunate rhetoric”? Apparently he did say that historic parallels could be misued and misunderstood.

Would the Nazis have chained prisoners to the floor in unbearable heat in their own excrement without food or water? Yes, that sounds like something that the Nazis might have done. Yes, that sounds like something that might have happened in the killing fields of Cambodia. Do you disagree?

That is all that Durbin said. I find no lie or exaggeration or twisting of fact.

He did not misuse the parallel, Mr. Moto. You did. Either that, or you are part of nose-jerk partisans that are smelling only their own upper lips.

tagos and squink, thanks for the ongoing education that you provide with your links!

[Mr.Moto]

@Zoe

Would the Nazis have chained prisoners to the floor in unbearable heat in their own excrement without food or water? Yes, that sounds like something that the Nazis might have done. Yes, that sounds like something that might have happened in the killing fields of Cambodia. Do you disagree?

Yeah, and the Nazis had flair that they made the Jews wear. :rolleyes:

That’s the problem with using the Nazis in comparisons, Zoe. Is what is going on anything as bad as what they did? Nope, not by a long shot. And since it isn’t, it leads folks to dismiss the entire statement where they should merely dismiss as hyperbolic the one comparison.

You just did it yourself, and it was all I could do to treat this as just a mishandled analogy and not a demonstration of historical ignorance.

This whole Gitmo thing is a huge international problem as well as being a political mess. I’m not so partisan a Republican that I can’t see that. And the only thing that might save Bush and the Republicans on this issue is a bunch of Democrats wildly overplaying their hand, like Durbin did this week.

[Mockingbird]

@Mr. Moto

I didn’t see fit to comment very much on the Terry Schiavo case at all, so it wouldn’t be reasonable to interpret any comments I made about Frist on the subject one way or the other.

I’ve only posted to this board 4,000 times or so, so I can hardly have covered all of the world’s topics. Sorry.

That is so utterly disingenuous that I feel no need to further prove your dishonesty, both intellectual and political.

[Mr.Moto]

So you don’t like me. Big fucking deal.

Why don’t you open a Pit thread, and save yourself the hassle of attacking me in numerous threads. One stop shopping made Kresge and Walton rich, you know.

[Sam_Stone]

Jesus. Can’t you guys get it through your head? THERE IS A WAR ON. The enemy is fighting it mainly as a propaganda war. That’s what insurgencies do.

Now, Gitmo isn’t helping. BUT HAVING THE SECOND HIGHEST RANKING DEMOCRAT IN THE SENATE MAKING LOOSE COMPARISONS BETWEEN AMERICA AND THE NAZIS AND POL POT MAKES IT FUCKING WORSE, NOT BETTER.

There. I’m done shouting. Why can’t you guys see this? This is not about whether Gitmo should be criticised. It should. This is about a high fucking official making idiotically stupid remarks that are absofuckinglutely guaranteed to harm the war effort.

You want to make a strong statement about Gitmo? Fine. How about something like this:

"I believe there are abuses going on at Guantanamo bay that are outside the boundaries of what America stands for. For those in the world who believe that this facility represents what America is all about, I would like to assure you that it’s not. And as a representative of the American government, I condemn any violations of human rights that are going on there.

There should be a full investigation of that prison to determine whether these abuses have the sanction of high government officials. If our soldiers are being ordered to do these things, then the officials who ordered it are disrespecting our own military and violating its traditions. If these abuses are the result of ‘rogue’ elements, they must be brought to justice.

If these abuses were ordered from on highy these officials should be removed from power, either through impeachment or the vote. This is how a democracy works, and Americans believe in democracy and that the best check on such abuses is the kind of open debate and criticism I am engaging in today.

Today I am ashamed of what has been done in America’s name, but I have faith that the good hearts of the American people and the openness of our political system will right these wrongs and we will continue to be a shining example of decency to the rest of the world."

But oh no, instead this clown has to score political points by making cheap comparisons to genocide and torture on a massive scale, and in so doing he has given the enemy a huge gift that they can use to drum up hatred, recruit more insurgents, turn populations against the U.S, and kill more soldiers.

You wonder why Democrats are not trusted with security? It’s because the Democratic party has too many dipshits like this guy.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

There’s a war on? Cite?

When was this war declared? Who’s the enemy? What are the defined goals? What is the arena? Why does that mean we can’t denounce war crimes on our own side? How does that help the enemy? Do you think if we all just keep quiet about the torture that the enemy won’t get mad?

[Guinastasia]

Fuck you, Sam. So we should just ignore abuses because the enemy might hear us complaining about it? Fuck that shit.

I don’t give a SHIT about what the enemy might hear. This isn’t about fucking propaganda, it’s about doing what’s right. I’m ashamed that spin is more important than ethics.

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

One slight problem with your noble exercise in rhetoric, Sam – it isn’t a soundbite. It would never make the news. If a position can’t be expressed in 25 words or less, in living color, it won’t get airtime.

I’d say that your version is pretty much what Durbin, I’m willing to assume, was intending to get across. But if he’d chosen your approach, who would listen? Who would hear it?

And anyway, the spinmasters would grab the “ashamed” bit and loudly proclaim that Durbin believes American soldiers are shameful. The biggest propaganda war is being fought right here on our soil, and the Gitmo defenders have no shame.