Halliburton to build new $30 mln Guantanamo jail
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050616/ts_nm/security_guantanamo_halliburton_dc
You can’t make this stuff up. As Kevin Drum notes, “no wonder Cheney is booking time on Larry King to tell us what a great place Gitmo is.”
Weirddave: * We didn’t, despite the accusations of Nazihood that some people like to make.*
What “accusations of Nazihood”? I’ve been trying all thread to understand where this rhetoric is coming from, and I’m not getting it. To repeat:
What he did was to claim that (alleged) specific acts of brutal abuse sound like behavior we’d tend to associate with Nazis.
I just don’t see how anyone can view this statement as “outrageous” or “excessive” or “anti-American” or an “accusation of Nazihood” without interpreting it to mean significantly more than what Durbin actually said.
Now, maybe your point is that any statement mentioning Nazis etc. will be overinterpreted in that way, because Nazis and Stalin and Pol Pot and so forth are highly-charged topics and people are likely to overreact at even a hint of being associated with them. So sensible public figures should avoid any mention of them altogether, in order to keep the rhetorical climate a little more cool.
That, I think, is a valid point, and I for one am perfectly willing to support a general moratorium on Nazi/Stalin/Pol Pot rhetoric. I notice, though, that this pro-moderation faction wasn’t much in evidence a couple years back when the President and many other war supporters were trying to fan the flames of invasion fever by constantly comparing Saddam Hussein to Hitler. Hmm.
Quite honestly, I don’t give a shit. I’m tired of spin, and I’m tired of partisan politics obscuring the real issues.
Although I do agree, your comment would probably be better in the spin game. But I stand by what I said-these motherfuckers make me ashamed to be an American.
(Of course, I’ve always thought it’s much better to feel GRATEFUL to be an American, than PROUD. I didn’t do anything on purpose to be an American, but I’m sure thankful I was born here).
Ya know, this isn’t trolling, but it’s not much better. You enter a discussion being totally ignorant of the situation and yet see fit to hold forth. When you’re educated, you promply forget/ignore it, and go on to argue some more when your support’s been cut out from under you. You’re just stirring up shit. Piss poor form.
Ya know, if I had hired a contractor to build me a sauna, and he dug a hole in my septic tank, installed a water heater and handed me a bill for 100 times his estimate…
I wouldn’t hire him again. Maybe that’s just me…
He didn’t appoint a tribunal, he declared them not Prisoners of War by presidential fiat, in violation of the Geneva Conventions. This is the case no matter how many smilies you throw at me.
That’s great. Until such a tribunal with such an outcome occurs, they should be treated as Prisoners of War according to the Geneva Convention. This is apparently not happening, despite your insistence otherwise. The hypothetical results of the tribunals that are their right as per the Convention is not the issue here. Their current treatment as guests of the United States is the issue.
Despite your patronizing tone, I have read the thread. I read the part of the Convention Zoe quoted, the part that states “No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever,” and I read the Squink’s post that states “In a confidential report, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) has said it found prisoner abuse”.
Actually, it would seem that the majority of the prisoners at Gitmo could not have been treated in the manner you suggest under the several Geneva and Hague conventions to which we are signatories. There are probably a handful who were actually taken prisoner by U.S. forces while carrying arms (although no evidence has been presented that they were not bearing some standardized method of identification), but the majority of the Gitmo prisoners were handed over to the U.S. after being captured by Afghani militia. They are, therefore, barring evidence, actually disarmed civilians who are to be treated in a wholly separate fashion. Instead, we have applied a name for them that has no legal precedent and we have chosen to ignore their rights under both the laws of warfare and criminal laws. (We could discuss the actual numbers of each case–except, of course, that the administrtion has chosen to refuse to disclose those numbers or the conditions under which any of the prisoners were brought into U.S. custody.)
[QUOTE=Diogenes the CynicThe abuses at Guantanamo Bay include frequent beatings, mysterious deaths, similar techniques of sexual humilaiation, the above-mentioned shackling in extreme conditions of heat or cold without food or water, “stress positioning,” which is the shackling of the victim in excruciatingly painful physical positions for prolonged lengths of time, various kinds of verbal and psychological abuse including the now confirmed desecration of Korans, and of course, the cruelest torture of all, the indefinite and ongoing deprivation of any contact with family members now stretching into years without any charges being made against them, without any access to counsel and without any opportunity to prove their own innocence.[/QUOTE]
Could I get a cite that all this has been proven to have occurred at Gitmo?
I am especially interested in light of the offhand reference to “confirmed desecration of Korans”, which seems to have been committed primarily by detainees.
Also please note that I am asking for proof, not allegations.
Regards,
Shodan
Google on “amnesty international Guanatamo.”
Tribunal halted after judge rules system unlawful (11/04)
Guantánamo trials ‘violate justice’ (6/05)
DoD News Briefing, June 16, 2005 Mr. DiRita; spokesman
Three and four years seems long enough to wait to get a reasonable system in place. Why hasn’t it been done?
http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-06-04-voa1.cfm
Inadvertendly?
http://www.politinfo.com/articles/article_2005_06_04_1926.html
Yes, accidental… :dubious:
Problem is: the proof both in favor and against seems to be coming allways from the military and the administration, independent confirmation is needed. Frankly, with independent confirmation this whole mess would have been avoided, or by not having made this boneheaded move of making a new definition for prisioners with the only purpose to avoid procedure.
I find it interesting that Mr. Moto can be quick to pit Senator Durbin for this and when Senator Frist claims he never made a diagnosis on Terri Schaivo from videotape, a lie isn’t called out by him.
So, is Mr. Moto trying to tell us that there’s a double standard and that his party can lie and not be held accountable for it, but a reasonable characterization by the opposition of a situation can be spun into something it wasn’t and is acceptable?
Even funnier is the case of Rick Santorum (R-PA). When Robert Byrd (D-WV) made a reference to Nazi tactics in the debate over the filibuster, Santorum accused him of “lessen[ing] the decorum of the Senate.” Then, a couple of months later, Santorum did exactly the same thing, making the Hitler connection in the filibuster debate.
If anyone is interested, Jon Stewart included clips of both these men’s speeches in a segment on what we internet folks might call Godwin’s Law last night on the Daily Show. If you want to see it, go to this page and watch the video titled “A Relatively Closer Look: Hitler References.”
Not that I disagree with you, but really, what else have they got?
For the analogy to work, you’d have to be paying the contractor with money that didn’t belong to you in the first place. Then again, being a man of impeccable character, it’d make no difference in your case.
I find it easier to just conclude Mr. Moto is a shameless Fox-watching Bush-voting apologist, like a number of other foaming righties we have nowadays. Totally impervious to all issues of facts, fairness, and morality; the only matter is to defend the Bush Administration against any and all criticism, which counts as “winning” the “game” (and earns points redeemable for big prizes at the next Freeper barbecue).
Hey fuckstain, pay attention. I did not request any cites prior to this request. Also, the cite that was provided on page two included nothing about glowsticks being rammed in orifices nor the actual raping of males. I think it was fair to ask where those assertions came from.
Why don’t you stick to requesting we remove certain phrases from the SD lexicon, or maybe request we stop chattering about this until you can participate…
What a pompous jackass you are.
Well, I rather doubt that some, and several Dopers in particular, are going to be deterred from attacking everything and anything the Bush administration does by anything as mundane as independent facts.
And ISTM that some responsibility accrues to “independent agencies” like Amnesty International not to blow holes in their credibility by making exaggerations. And I would say the same about the Dems, the rather strained efforts to parse this latest nonsense from Durbin as something other than what it is notwithstanding.
Regards,
Shodan
Nor will some be deterred from defending everything and anything the Bush administration does by anything as mundane as independent facts.