Going to hell in a hand basket

Great Debates
21

So you dismiss Microsoft, BP, Toyota and Samsung?
What are the principles of capitalism?

Which nations did you have in mind?
Papua New Guinea?
Bolivia?
Luxemburg?
San Seriffe?

Do tell us what these ‘principles’ are.
Explain why some countries renounce nuclear weapons in your answer.

Oh yes. Because this has happened so many times in the past. :rolleyes:

It appears to me that you think the logic of Wal-Mart means that nuclear war is inevitable. :rolleyes:
I’m a teacher. I teach my pupils to prooof read and check their logic. You should try it.

22

glee

I copied this listing of some of the principles of capitalism from
http://www.freeos.com/articles/4133/

Wealth

“Wealth is the result of man’s ability to think applied to the sphere of production and trade. Reason, ultimately, is the source of all wealth.”
“Fundamentally, wealth is the product of man’s mind-and belongs to each man to the extent that he created it.”
“Wealth belongs to the individual who produced it.”

Property

“Capitalism is a social system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which all property is privately owned.”

The Rights of the Producer

“The right to dispose of one’s income belongs to the producer, and if he wishes to give it to an heir, a charity, or to flush it down the toilet-that is the producer’s right. It is not any of your concern, and it certainly is not the concern of the government.”

Trade

“Free competition is the freedom to produce, and the freedom to trade what one has produced, for one’s own self-interest, i.e, in the pursuit of one’s own happiness.”

Statism - the enemy of Capitalism

“How does capitalism differ from statism?
Statism is the opposite of capitalism.
Only capitalism declares that each and every man, may live his own life for his own happiness, as an end to himself, not by permission of others, but by right, and that government’s sole responsibility is to protect those rights, and never violate them, because they are inalienable.”

23

I thought I recognized those quotes- and of course, they’re from my old buddy
Ayn Rand.

Agree or disagree with her, she knew how to make a point- clear, concise & straightforward.

24

So you believe the opposite? That each man exists for the other’s happiness? That your life is a means, not an end? That each person lives only by the sufferance of others? That those who do not serve your ends can be destroyed at your whim?

I am not your slave. I do not exist to serve you. I exist for my own sake, I am not a object to be used as a means for your ends.

Values are not set by capitalism. Prices are. Values are set by human desires. I desire an apple. You have an apple. I offer to give you something you value more than the apple, but I value less than the apple. And so we exchange objects, I give you my carrots, you give me your apple. And this is capitalism. How did capitalism define the value of the apple, or the value of the carrots? Value is by definition subjective.

NOW we’re getting somewhere. Bring on the Objectivism! Whooop! I’m ready! You’ll PAY to know what you really think!

25

I am stunned, stunned I tell you, that the first three responses to this thread didn’t call out the incoherence of the OP.

In what possible way does the “conclusion” develop from the previous paragraphs? I genuinely had no idea where coberst thought the connection was. Reminds of some of my lazy threads posted while distracted, hungry, or sleep-deprived, where I’d throw out half an idea & see if anyone would fill in my blanks.

Oh, Ayn Rand. Yawn. Maybe if I’d read her stuff, I would at least recognize the tropes. Oh, well, this doesn’t make me want to read her stuff, so carry on.

26

If the OP wants to do something to save capitalism, I suggest he start with, y’know, actually reading about how capitalism works and self-corrects. It might save him a lot of energy in his crusade.

27

Urk! Posted too soon.

I really should read more than two responses to the thread before posting about “the first three responses.” Haste makes waste, & all that.

Um, okay, coberst, I sort of agree with much of what you’ve said, but it’s time you learned that if you’re challenging society’s direction & conventional wisdom, you’re challenging beliefs both widely & deeply held, which most people who think they know what’s going on think they have determined out to be true, true, true. Against that kind of prejudice, the rhetorical shortcuts are unconvincing. Any flaw in your debating style will be seized on & taken as a sign of your lack of perception.

However…

Perhaps the point is that you’re trying to explain something that you perceive only vaguely, & you are trying to argue what is true, as opposed either to reassuring lies or logically perfect confections. If so, more power to you.

But then again, many men will say superficial things that sound good as part of their self-introduction that they can mislead others into following them. So, really, since I have no idea what your conclusions & direction are, I can’t judge whether you… even make sense.

28

What’s your take on mechanical suicide machines?

29

Coberst never asks questions. He never considers anyone else’s thoughts or ideas. It’s all about Coberst. And yet there is nothing attributable to Coberst in anything he posts. He doesn’t care what anyone else thinks…he just wants to sell people on Critical Thinking (completely unaware that the market is already saturated).

30

What is a mechanical suicide machine?

31

When I was at Uni, one of our tutors pointed us at a very interesting paper by Karl Marx.

Like quite a lot of literature, a novel could be a short story (well is often an inflated short story) and theories tend to be bloated with irrelevant garbage.

I must confess, I’m one of those that got stuck on the first footnote in Das Kapital, and decided that I would prefer to go to the pub.

However, from that ‘germ paper’ of his, I reckon that he had a very different understanding of ‘capital’ and ‘capitalism’ than the one that most people accept.

I actually reckon that his prediction (the short paper one) was spot on correct and that he had spotted something rather interesting.

Either Marx changed his mind, or what he meant by ‘capital’ was something slightly different from the modern concept. A darn sight more material.

Digressing, Coberst, I don’t know what makes you think that people stop learning when their formal education ends. I did not, there was an informal mentor system, one that I have passed on to the next generation, and I believe is still continuing.

32

We’ve been going to Hell in a hand basket ever since we got around to inventing Hell and handbaskets. Doesn’t really mean much though.

So far, I’ve lived my whole life w/o regard to your observations and judgment. I guess I shouldn’t’ve. C’est la vie.

You should break apart your revelations into smaller chunks so that you may more fully articulate each one. As is, it sound like a series of bumperstickers and disjointed soundbytes. Maybe you’re just soo evolved beyond the realm of mere mortal understanding. Too bad you’re wonderful revelations aren’t more accessible and coherent to folks who don’t inhabit your mind.

Oh yeah.
Welcome to GD

33

Excellent point you make.
“I put down the cup and examine my own mind. It alone can discover the truth. But how? What an abyss of uncertainty, whenever the mind feels overtaken by itself; when it, the seeker, is at the same time the dark region through which it must go seeking and where all its equipment will avail it nothing. Seek? More than that: create. It is face to face with something which does not yet exists, to which it alone can give reality and substance, which it alone can bring into the light of day.” “Remembrance of Things Past”

Where can one find more courage and creativity than in the wagon train crossing the Mississippi and driving West to the Pacific coast to create a new life in what is presently a wilderness? Or perhaps in the ships crossing the Atlantic with a small group determined to start a new life on a continent presently free of any such life as intended.

Can you think of anything that would be more creative than starting a new civilization?

34

Proust was an old windbag

The American Myth - Willy Loman sleeping under a wagon - Marion Wayne

Yes, educating a new civilization - like what the Greeks did to the Romans

35

Dude, you’re quoting yourself from another message board entry you made earlier this year. Can’t you add a current spin or something specific to this thread? Something?

36

I strenuously agree with some of the OP, and fervently deny other parts.

No idea which is which, though.

Regards,
Shodan

37

This is a riduculous overstatement. Much of education is about being a well-rounded person and a good citizen. Hate capitalism all you want, but it’s hardly the only ideology that informs educational practice.

38

I have discovered that I am a ‘morning person’. I mean that my best is available to me in the morning. I seldom make decisions or try to do creative work late in the day. My best creative effort comes in the morning and I thus save for late in the day those tasks that are mechanical and require little of me in the task. From talking with others I conclude that each of us is either a morning or a night person.

I also conclude that we are bipartite creatures with a creative side and a mechanical side. I think that a very fortunate few of us find a way to make a living using our creative side. The Industrial Revolution has slowly diminished our creative self and has replaced it with our mechanical self.

We have slowly morphed into mechanical workers and this has resulted in an atrophying (wasting away) of our creative self. A major part of our life is spent in the work place and since this work place not only requires little creativity it often finds any form of creativity to hinder efficiency. What corporation wants its machines to set around thinking when ‘doing’ is the ‘game’?

A fortunate few keep their creative self on the job but I wonder if even those few tend to lose their creativity; often because the society has become individuals without creativity. Even those who are creative on the job have exchanged that creativity for objects (money). We all sell our time for money. I think the social sciences call this “equivalent values”.

Ours is a commodity economy that has morphed into a commodity society because our education, values, religion, politics, etc. have all become commodities (objects of commerce). We relate to one another as objects in which the exchange of things is the means for establishing the value of a person.

This is a dramatic change from what we started out as a nation. I think that comparing the rugged individual of the frontier and the family farmer of our origin might be a useful means for illuminating how different we are from our origins.

The rugged individual as farmer and as merchant and as social being, wherein each person was a jack-of-all-trades and master of no trade but master of her domain, might be compared with the herd of commodified creatures we have become. We have traded quality for quantity—perhaps this is a good trade but it needs to be understood and given careful consideration.

39

Here’s an interesting link pertaining to this subject: http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=4762

40

::sigh::

Coberst, how old are you?