I’ve noticed that CalifBoomer’s posts do not necessarily have anything to do with the subject under discussion.
Jodi
Fiat Justitia
To those worried about the Miami family’s rights, I say fear not. This is exactly what the Miami family wanted - to force a powerful government intervention so they could continue to claim martyr status. The only thing the Miami folks are displeased about is that the raid didn’t take place in daylight so they could make as big a fuss as possible.
It is extremely important to keep in mind that Elian was the victim of an extremely common sort of international child abduction by his mother, against his father’s will and knowledge, and then, as soon as the deadline for handing him over passed, was essentially kidnapped by his Miami relatives. I am astonished that Lazaro Gonzales has not yet been arrested for his defiance of the order to hand Elian over at the proper time.
This family had made it eminently plain that they had no intention of dealing honorably. Janet Reno knew at this late date that nothing they said could be believed.
The operation looked scary, yes, but it was carried out with incredible speed and efficiency, and lack of injury – comparing this with Waco or he Weaver thing, where there was extensive injury due to questionable government activity is absurd. I know the anti-Gov’t types will continue to howl, but the scariness of and necessity for the raid are to be laid squarely on the shoulders of Lazaro Gonzales, and a large group of citizens who seem to think that the laws of their adopted country mean nothing. Marisleysis was quoted as saying she’s ashamed to be an American, but she clearly knows nothing about what that means. If they feel that way, they should leave.
Phew, I feel better now.
Ooh, I love your magazine. My favorite section is `How to increase your word power’. That thing is really, really… really… good. – Homer, ``Mr. Lisa Goes to Washington’’
Hepzibah,
Excellent post! Made me think, especially about the abduction angle.(Politics aside)
Considering the DOJ record under Reno, it’s just hard not to think of her without thinking “Gestapo.”
Thanks, Klaatu. I have one further quibble.
I have friends who work at Justice, and friends whose elderly relatives still bear their concentration camp numbers. Believe me, Janet Reno is not the Gestapo. That kind of comparison over-criticises Reno, and cheapens the Holocaust.
Ooh, I love your magazine. My favorite section is `How to increase your word power’. That thing is really, really… really… good. – Homer, ``Mr. Lisa Goes to Washington’’
If I were Elian’s father I’d have that so-called “uncle” in jail faster than you could say Cigar. Remember back a week or so ago when Uncle Whatsisname was saying he only wanted what’s best for Elian? Liar. He could easily have avoided confrontation by allowing Elian to return to his father. Once Justice ordered Elian to be returned and the family refused, Uncle was a kidnapper and as such had no “right” to be left alone.
I also agree with what was said about comparing Reno to the Nazis. Give me a break. Anytime somebody does something we don’t agree with, out come the Nazi comparisons. It’s odious. Rescuing a boy from his kidnappers without bloodshed or loss of life or property hardly compares to the atrocities committed in Nazi Germany, Stalin’s Soviet Union, or Pol Pot’s Cambodia.
How dare ANYBODY use a 6-year-old boy to make a political statement? Elian should have been returned to his father before December 1st. If I blame Reno for anything, it’s for taking this long.
Ok, point taken, my apologies for using a derogatory stereotype. I meant DOJ “overkill”
in some high profile cases.
It’s just that terms like “gestapo” or “stormtrooper” have almost become generic in their use for government thuggery.
I meant no slight.
Again, my apologies
The US Government has been trying for months to get the kid back to his father. Read the news if you don’t believe me.
The only thing good about this whole mess is that for the first time the American public is getting a taste of what the Miami "Cuban-American" population is really like. "Militant Cuban-National Exiles" would be a bit more like it.
I spent some time in Little Havana, and didn't find it to be what you'd call a bastion of liberty and justice for all.
One thing I can tell you is that what all of these protesters are not really concerned with is the fate of Elian Gonzalez.
Rather it involves that ratherrabid anti-Castro ideal which has remained undiluted in the community
since the 1960’s.
By the way, the performance of Elian's cousin on MSNBC was unbelievable. Literally. May I quote?
"They said, "Don't move or I'll shoot him!' ( Meaning Elian.) I'll shoot you! I'll shoot!'"
Yeah. That happened. In the most politically sensitive situation of the year (so far,) with dozens of cameras
aimed at the front door of that house, with the most recent memories of Federal Law Enforcement being Waco and Ruby Ridge, they are going to send people in there to scream Death Promises in the face of a 6-year-old
boy.
Tell you what. It didn't happen. She's lying.
I'll tell you a few other things, as well, in order.
1) The distant Miami relatives of Elian Gonzalez have, from the start, been influenced by, and (most likely knowing) tools of, a vociferous group of Batista loving, well-monied exiles who have seen in the plight of this boy an opportunity to advance a political cause which has nothing whatsoever to do with the "ideals of America," which you can hear them mouthing incessantly on national television when it fits their purpose.
2) The Mayor of Miami is a pandering liar.
3) The Democratic candidate for President, Al Gore, is a pandering liar, at least in this regard.
-
The Republican candidate for president, G.W. Bush is not lying, as I don’t feel he really has an opinion on the matter, but is cartainly pandering.
-
The “Chris Matthews (of MSNBC)” attitude needs some comment. Here’s my impression of His Highness Saturday afternoon:
"This is what the Clinton Administration was doing all along! He sent them there to murder Elian but was foiled by vigilant remnents of the Eagle Forum. This administration has decieved the American public by increasing gas prices, murdering Kosovars, and covering up ---------------(insert here anything from the Challenger explosion to the alleged Death of Jimmy Breslin.)
6) I'm not a big fan of cops. I believe in the Fourth Amendment. I also believe that all actions taken by the DOJ this morning were appropriate and restrained. The fact that the INS and other agencies went into that house with body armor and automatic weapons is completely justified by the threats that they had recived (and
continue to recieve,) as well as the history of political violence around and within that community.
The moment captured in pictures by the stray correspondent is immediate and sensational, and that is all. The “gun in the face,” pictures provide less for understanding than they do for propoganda. In fact, the “relatives,” by defying the rule of law, made themselves criminals.
Should the United States negotiate with criminals such as the relatives? No. They gave them more slack than they deserved.
I’m done now.
Chris <cdobney@willinet.net>Without loss of property? The Feds seriously damaged Mr. Gonzales’s home, not to mention the very serious 4th Amendment questions that are involved.
I’m really not that bad a typist. I had originally formatted the above post for email, so I could keep it. I tried to reformat for this board, and it didn’t work out so well. Please be pissed at the comments, and not the spelling or formatting.
Chris
4th amendment? That applies to peaceful, law-abiding people not being barged in on by the military or police. It doesn’t apply to kidnappers in their lairs. The 4th amendment (as has been pointed out here) is against UNREASONABLE search/seizure, not ANY AND ALL search/seizure. Returning a kidnapped boy to his father is not unreasonable. What is unreasonable is the family’s refusal to allow it to happen.
I was unaware that the police had damaged the property and I withdraw that part of my comment.
Your witty one-liner can appear HERE!
O…O
=o=
He’s a kidnapper, plain and simple, and you’re concerned about the damage to his home?? As far as I can tell, they kicked the door in and broke a headboard – those bastards!
There ARE not Fourth Amendment concerns. The Fourth Amendment only protects against unreasonable searches and seizures, as has already been pointed out. If I kidnap your kid and keep him in my house, in defiance of the law, the government has every right to retrieve him, and my constitutional rights are not violated when they do so.
Jodi
Fiat Justitia
Sorry. Replace “Unaware that the police had damaged property” with “Unaware that the Feds had damaged property” in my last.
Your witty one-liner can appear HERE!
O…O
=o=
Just think, if the MOB/CIA/MIB/AFL/CIO/CSM/DAR/AOL/ETC would have succeeded in killing Castro instead of JFK, we could be sitting in Havana smoking a big cigar…
And another thing – and I may be sorry tomorrow that I posted this but it’s bugging me now. I’m getting a little sick and tired of seeing Cuban-Americans on T.V. talking about how the American government is fascist, and how Miami isn’t really part of the U.S. but is a mini-Cuban enclave that could and should defy the law, and that they are all now ashamed of being Americans.
My country (now yours) has gone out of its way to give you a warm welcome – a hell of a lot warmer than it gives people from many other nations, who have just as compelling reasons to want to leave their oppressive or dangerous homelands. Many of you have done quite well for yourselves as Americans, and you have encountered a level of respect and acceptance that immigrants of many other nationalities unfortunately cannot expect. I know you have the right to your opinion, and to express it as you wish, but my opinion of all the bitching and moaning about how things are run here is that if you don’t like it, you can climb back into your leaky little boats and head off to another land more to your liking.
Jodi
Fiat Justitia
Exactly. And this was not a “reasonable” search and seizure.
I’m fairly shocked that more Americans are not standing up to this invasion of Constitional Rights.
BTW, those Rights apply to all, regardless of your political views on Cuban-American relations.
[quote[Exactly. And this was not a “reasonable” search and seizure.[/quote]
Why not? If you’re going to take a position around here, you’d better be willing to defend it. So what made the search and seizure unreasonable? These people had no legal right to that child. NONE. Does a kidnapper have a constitutional right to be free from search and seizure if the cops break in and rescue the child? No. So instead of reiterating over and over that you think this presents a constitutional problem, please explain why. You are correct that this has nothing to do with my irritation over the current carping of the Cuban-American community, but that’s the only thing you’re right about.
Jodi
Fiat Justitia
jodih,
It’s not reasonable for the Feds to break into your house in the middle of the night and point automatic weapons at six-year-old children. No matter what you say, it’s not reasonable.
It IS somewhat perplexing how Cuban exiles seem to feel they are more “entitled” than other immigrants to this country.
Perhaps because they wield considerable political power in Miami. Salon had a good piece on that today, written by a Cuban exile. (Sorry, don’t have the link offhand.)
One of his points was regarding the local media; The Miami Herald has an English edition, and a Spanish edition, admittedly aimed at the Cuban community (They are owned by the same corporate entity.)
While the English ver. Herald reports a generally unbiased view of Miami, the Spanish Herald seems to report from a decidedly anti-Castro pro exile POV.
With something like 800,000 people of Cuban descent in Miami, maybe they feel they have have a right to some entitlement.
That IS a big voting Bloc.
Well, let’s look at that. Which of these are unreasonable? That they:
- The Feds break into your house . . . .
The Fourth Amendment does not say that you shall be free of all searches and seizures (ie, no breaking into your house), only that you will be free from unreasonable ones. Therefore the fact that they broke into your house is not alone enough to violate the constitution.
- In the middle of the night . . . .
Factually, this is not correct, unless you consider five in the morning the middle of the night. Your preference would have been for them to arrive at three in the afternoon, maybe, when the house is surrounded by angry protestors and the possibility of death or injury is maximized? The government is authorized to enter private homes at any time of the day or night (with proper legal authority, of course) to prevent the occurrence of certain types of crimes, including kidnapping. Time of day does not make it unreasonable.
- And point automatic weapons at six-year-old children.
Again, factually, there is no evidence that anyone pointed an automatic weapon at Elian. The photo in question, which I presume everyone has seen by now, clearly shows the INS officer pointing his weapon at the adult, not the child, and his finger is not on the trigger. Part of the reason to carry a weapon is to protect the officer, and a good way to do that is to intimidate a potential adversary by prominently displaying the weapon. The constitution does not mandate that officers enter homes unarmed, which would be stupid, wouldn’t it?
Sure it is. But then, it didn’t happen the way you relate it, anyway.
Jodi
Fiat Justitia
Oh, and BTW, I deliberately left out the “I fear I will be executed” thing, because Cuban exiles are probably less persecuted than many who claim asylum. (Central American death squads, Bosnia, et al)
Castro might be a dictator, but if he was committing mass murder, we would know it.