I should also note that by refusing to return the child to his father, he was being held forcibly, except maybe in some sort of bizarre Orwellian doublespeak where you call things exactly the opposite of what they are.
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peas on earth
[hijack]
Danielinthewolvesden sez:
How long have YOU sat on a Grand Jury?
While I may disagree with you POV, and can not see any logic in your arguement, I do not see how you can justify your petty arguement that you have been on a grand jury so you must know more than anyone else. Looking at Otto’s post in this thread shows him backing his opinion with quotes from Black’s Law Dictionary and Florida statutes. You on the other hand say that you have been on a grand jury, thus you know more than he does. Get A Grip
Sorry for the hijack, but this really bugged me.
-N
[/hijack]
“Strider…I must also confess that you’re one of the nicest atheists I’ve met.”
Plain language of the statute. If the child is under 13, “against his will” means against the will of the child’s legal guardian. The Elianistas forcibly held Elian against the will of his legal guardian, his father.
Never claimed to.
Not the goal of the raid. The goal of the raid was to liberate the child from those who were holding him against the will of the legal guardian. The Attorney General does not enforce Florida law. Even if she did, it’s unlikely that she would add to what, any way it shook out, was going to be an ugly situation, exacerbating it by ordering arrests. But if the proper authorities decide to take action, they know where the Elianistas live.
Just because no arrests were made doesn’t mean no crime was committed.
Police have discretion as to making arrests and prosecutors have discretion as to filing charges. Police and prosecutors take into account the seriousness of the offense and the likelihood of a conviction.
Otto: Kidnapping is a FEDERAL crime. Reno is in charge of arresting people for it.
You guys don’t know how to read a statute. The kidnapping MUST be “forcibly, secretly, or by threat”. It ALSO must be “against his will”, which as you have pointed out, is moot in this case, due to Elians age.
Guys, if you don’t believe me, go ask an expert. I just called a Judge of the Superior Court that I have worked with. He said “I’m glad those gentlemen weren’t on the Grand Jury”. But, hell, there are some actual lawyers on the SDMB, ask one of them.
If there really was kidnapping here, Reno has a responsibility to bring charges. She won’t, as there was no kidnapping.
jodih, sounds like your cue. Care to step in and tell these misguided folks why they’re wrong?
Cecil said it. I believe it. That settles it.
Relax, I’m not as Dave as I look!- A Wallified sig!
OK, Tom, how would you feel if this was your child?
Well, I’m not Tom, but I would be relieved that the athorities were getting my child back to me. You don’t have any children, do you?
Cecil said it. I believe it. That settles it.
Relax, I’m not as Dave as I look!- A Wallified sig!
And it was. The father demanded the child back; they refused. A court order was issued; they still refused. The authorities said, “look, we’re going to come get him by force if you don’t hand him over peacefully”; they still refused. If that’s not “holding him by force”, I cannot imagine what is.
It’s not moot. Look at 1(b) again please. It states that “against the will” of someone under 13 years of age means against the will of the parent or guardian. He was being held against the will of his parent, and thus by 1(b), against his own will.
I am no lawyer, but I really can’t see how the statute Otto kindly looked up could possibly be interpreted in any other way. If I’m wrong, I’ll admit it, but it really seems like plain English to me.
Perhaps one of our resident lawyers can comment.
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peas on earth
What part of “prosecutorial discretion” are you not understanding? Prosecutors have near-absolute discretion in deciding whether to file charges and order arrests. It is illogical to argue that a crime was not committed because no arrests were made. All crimes do not trigger arrests, and not all arrests are of commiters of crime. Unsolved crimes by definition do not trigger arrests. Is the crime any less a crime if it is unsolved? is the victim of an unsolved murder any less dead? Does an unsolved car theft mean the victim has his car after all?
Look, do the syllogism:
If one commits a crime, one is arrested.
No one was arrested.
Therefore no crime was commited.
This is logically flawed on two counts. First, not-B does not prove not-A. Second, premise one is flawed because, as I’ve already said, not every crime triggers an arrest.
OTTO:I am not saying all crimes end in a arrest, you are either not reading the posts, or attempting to put words in my mouth. I am saying RENO did not have them arrested. She seems to have no “discretion” when it comes to people who piss her off & defy her. My point is that if RENO thought it was kidnapping she would have arrested them. My logic is not flawed, as I am not using your sylogism.
Bant: Court order? When did Reno get a court order? It would have had to be AFTER the 11th Circuit released Juristiction, which is all of 2 days or so. If she HAD got a court order, things would be different.
Note, Reno acted as soon as she could, and did not “wait patiently”, or “give them plenty of time”. She did not have juristicion until after the 11th Circuit made its dec.
As a foreigner, I’m a little bemused: aren’t those on the Reno-wears-jackboots side usually those who insist that guns enhance everyone’s safety? Shouldn’t they be deploring the incident, but expressing relief that guns were pointed?
picm
No, they believe the people should have more guns. Not the Federal Government.
The second picture of Elian with his father is a fake!
When he was snatched by the Feds, his hair was very short, almost a shaved look. Several hours later, when he was reunited with Juan Miguel, he has much longer hair. Did they give him Rogaine on the plane to DC?
Here’s the link: http://www.drudgereport.com/
In addition to all the indignities this family has suffered, they are reporting that tear gas was used inside the home! This was NOT a reasonable search and seizure.
Well, that’s proof enough for me.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
And here come the conspiracy theorists!
Uh, the lighting is different in the pic where he’s reunited with his father. There’s more shadow on the sides of his head, making his hair appear darker.
You people need to take “The Drudge Report” off of your bookmark lists …
As so very comprehensively and articulately explained by many here, I think the government acted appropriately, and I think the Miami family’s biggest problem now is, they’ve lost their pawn.
From their press conference this morning … “the boy’s now going to be returned to Fidel Castro.” Gee, I thought his Dad’s name was Juan Miguel …
“… we’re fighting a totalitarian regime…” Yeah, and we’re reuniting a boy with his father.
I now fear, that if Juan Gonzalez does the right thing, and finally stops Elian from being a little performing monkey for the media’s cameras, it’s going to work against him. If he seeks some privacy for the family, as he would have every right to do, the Miami family has already shown their zeal to play the spin game with newspapers and television. Only one side will be out there, with pictures and quotes for the news.
Now on to the next ludicrous portion of this Alice-in-Wonderland story: Do we allow a 6-year-old to decide on his own whether he wants to remain in the U.S.?
Give me immortality, or give me death!
Actually, milroyj, jodih, I and others have been posting informed opinions about why the S&S was “reasonable”, but you seem to ignore them. Then you come out with " the picture is a fake!". You have just proved that it is a waste of time to argue with you, and lended credibilty to the theory that it is a waste of air to keep you alive.
Cecil said it. I believe it. That settles it.
Relax, I’m not as Dave as I look!- A Wallified sig!
Wow. Somebody is citing the Drudge Report for factual support to a statement? Next thing someone will quote Rush Limbaugh as “proof”, and then we can redirect the thread to the Pit.
Whoever posted the kidnapping law, thanks. Kidnapping under the common law definition adopted in most states involves any holding of a person against either their consent or the consent of a guardian empowered to consent for them. Whatever the 11th Cir. may have held in this most recent decision, the family in Miami had no custodial rights in the child. There are all kinds of reasons not to prosecute in this case – just because they haven’t done it yet doesn’t mean they can’t prosecute later.
Those arguing the search was unreasonable keep repeating that it was without any backing to the statement - there is a legal definition of “unreasonable”, and they aren’t using it. They’re using a dictionary definition, which is different (and even under that subjective definition, I think this was perfectly reasonable). The Feds even went to the trouble of getting a warrant.
The important thing is that Elian get time without cameras or crazy manipulative distant relatives, and readjust to a proper relationship with his father. As the parent of a six-year-old, I almost threw up when I saw that tape of Elian wagging his finger at his father and saying he wants to stay here – six year olds however bright are extremely impressionable, and he was heartlessly manipulated by the kooks in Miami for their own reasons. Whoever said that we are getting a taste of the Cuban American community is right – I knew they were ultra-conservative, but I had no idea that they thought themselves entirely above the law of a country that has done them extremely special favors in the asylum department.
And the other major disappointment is the presidential candidates – I haven’t seen suchg craven pandering in a long time. I guess Gore was sick the day they taught law at law school. He keeps saying that this should have been resolved by a family court. Hello? Has he been paying attention? A circuit court has held this to be an issue of Federal Immigration Law and not a traditional custody battle. In fact, I’m entirely confused by anyone who suggests this for another reason – he has ONE LIVING PARENT about whom there is nothing bad substantiated or that can be believed. Why are we even having this conversation?
But at least there was still some comedy – in the form of Giuliani deploring the raid. Gales of laughter. I thought he was into that kind of thing.
Ooh, I love your magazine. My favorite section is `How to increase your word power’. That thing is really, really… really… good. – Homer, ``Mr. Lisa Goes to Washington’’
Reno is a politician. This situation is highly politically charged. Her options were basically: 1) Do nothing; 2) Stage a raid and take the boy; 3) Stage a raid, take the boy and arrest the alleged kidnappers. Each of those options had its own political ramifications. remember, Reno was a prosecutor in Florida before becoming AG. She knows the pitfalls of dealing with the ex-Cubans better than most. She did what was most likely to lead to the positive result of reuniting a child with his father in accordance with the ruling of the controlling legal authority and least likely to lead to a PR disaster. The Elianistas would like nothing better than to have pictures flashed around the world of the great-uncle and that lying cousin (who apparently had a ten minute conversation with an agent during a three minute raid) being led away in shackles. So, no arrests.
Could someone please tell me what Drudge is insinuating? I thought that he was claiming that these were older pictures of the “happy family”, but if you check out the “Marielysis Charges…” link, you’ll see a “AND WHAT NICE TEETH YOU’VE GROWN…!” caption. Are they claiming that the pictures aren’t of Elian Gonzalez at all?
I believe they are claiming, as millroyj put it:
To which I will again respond :rolleyes: