Gonzalez Family's 4th Amendment Rights

Whoa! Leave for a few days to go to trial (and lose), and the entire Board changes! I’m not going to try to block quote things, because I’m not yet sure how, but anyway . . .

DANGEROSA asks:

“Let’s say the courts grant the kid asylum…that doesn’t mean his father looses custody - right? And since the father has custody, it is the father’s right to raise the boy where he sees fit - Cuba, Miami, the South of France, correct? At least according to US law, perhaps he doesn’t have that right in Cuba, but our courts run under our laws. So what are we accomplishing here? The US Government does not keep people in this country against their will (unless they are incarcerated). And since Elian is six, his father’s will is his will.”

Well, that’s the the question the Court is trying to decide. If Elian, at tender age of six, has the ability and capacity to ASK for an asylum hearing (which I personally would assume he does not, but the court is at least going to take a look at that question), then he presumably has capacity to invoke his right to asylum, should the court find he can petition for it. In other words, the court would be determining that this particular six-year-old CAN ask for (and, one assumes, then accept) asylum without his father making the decision for him. Frankly, I’ll be really surprised if that’s what the court decides. But the question under debate at this point is whether “his father will is [Elian’s] will,” and if the court decides it is NOT, he arguably can stay here regardless of his father’s wishes.

MILROYJ asks:

“As I understood it, when Elian first arrived in the US, either the AG or the INS had custody (I believe it was the AG.) Then she granted temporary custody to Lazaro Gonzales, which has since been revoked. Am I ok on the facts so far?”

More or less. The INS is a division of the Department of Justice, which is run by the Attorney General. So the Attorney General is the Big Boss who can, if she chooses (as she has here), involve herself in INS affairs. I’m not sure whether it was her personal decision to place Elian temporarily with the Gonzaleses; I kind of doubt it, though, since I would assume she didn’t become involved until it became clear what a mess it was becoming. But I could be wrong.

“I assume that when Lazaro’s custody was revoked, custody reverted back to the AG.”

To the INS. The Attorney General never personally had custody of Elian.

“My question is, has legal custody of Elian been give back to Juan Miguel, and if so, at what point did this occur?”

This is sort of hard to respond to, because there was no specific time. Let me try to explain: The INS had custody of Elian because he arrived in the U.S. as an unaccompanied minor illegal alien. He almost literally washed up on our shores as an apparent orphan and, under such circumstances, responsibility for his welfare rested with the INS, which handles immigration issues. As such, the INS had the right to decide custody for him IN THE U.S. and SO LONG AS he remained an unaccompanied minor. Once he was something other than an unclaimed (ie, orphaned) minor, then the rationale for the INS to be in charge of his care no longer existed. In other words, the INS only had charge of him in the first place because one of his parents was dead and the other was not in a position to act as his parent (because he was at that time in Cuba). But once Elian’s father arrived in the U.S., ready and willing to parent Elian, the rationale for the INS to claim custody evaporated. And, since the INS has no real interest in dealing with custody issues or raising children, I’m sure they were perfectly happy to have Juan Miguel take charge of the boy’s care once again. The monkey wrench in the works, of course, was the Gonzaleses’ refusal to give the boy back.

“When Juan Miguel arrived in the US? sometime before? or when the two were physically reunited at the Air Force base?”

Juan Miguel ALWAYS had the right to custody of his child, at least under U.S. law. The question has never been whether he was entitled to custody, but who would have TEMPORARY authority to speak for the boy and care for the boy in his father’s absence. But his father isn’t absent anymore, so the justification for anyone other than the father to speak for the boy no longer exists.

DANIEL says:

“JODI that sect of Federal law I cited (TITL 18) seems to give the FEDS the authority in this case, if the was an act of “kidnapping” (which there wasn’t).”

I have explained why the actions in question do not meet the Federal definition of kidnapping (no transportation of the victim across state lines). I have also explained that the actions appear to meet the State definition of kidnapping, and further would constitute “kidnapping” under most lay-people’s definition of that term. I’m done arguing about this point.

“The 11th Circuit, has decided there will be some sort of hearing re asylum. They believe Elian had the right to PERHAPS ask for it himself. IF they decide on May 11th to have an Asylum hearing, the asylum hearing will bring up who is empowered to speak for Elian.”

Correct, except possibly for the last sentence. If Elian can ask for the asylum hearing himself, then presumably he can speak for himself during the course of the hearing. I find that pretty unlikely, but we’ll see.

“If the hearing rules Elian gets Asylum (doubtful, but who knows) then, they have DE FACTO decieded custody, as no asylum= Elian goes back to Cuba w/ father, ASYLUM= Elian stays in US, thus not w/ father, thus w/ Maimi relatives. TRUE, the Courts dec will only say asylum/no asylum, that is USA/Cuba, but the real end is that custody is decided. (I am not considering the slight poss of Sr. Gonzalez asking for asylum himself).”

I see your point, and it is not necessarily wrong. It might well shake out that way. It is not, however, necessarily right. If Elian were granted asylum without his father’s consent (highly unlikely), and if Juan Miguel then decided to return to Cuba without his son rather than stay in the U.S., Juan Miguel would arguably still have the right to transfer guardianship of his son to a person of his choosing, since he cannot raise the boy himself if he goes back to Cuba and Elian stays. It’s difficult to imagine that after his relatives’ behavior he would consider them as candidates for guardianship of Elian, even under those circumstances. In any event, the point is that an asylum hearing and a custody hearing are NOT the same thing. Even if you theorize a de facto determination of the latter through the former, that does not transform them into the same, or even similar, proceedings.

Looking foward to your educated opinion.

What is the first rule of gun safety? Do not point a gun at anyone. Janet Reno endangered Elain by ordering this raid. If anyone should be brought up on charges, it should be her.

jodih,

What do you think should happen now? Since he was snatched, his legal rights are not being represented at all. Everything is up to Juan Miguel’s lawyer. Should Elian have guardian “ad litem” appointed?

Jeff

Obviously, you have completely missed the point of that quote. The point is that we should stick together to protect each other’s rights, because if we don’t there’s no guarentee that anyone will stand up for our one. Do you see any rights being violated? Let me guess, next you’ll argue that putting criminals in jail is discrimination against criminals.

BTW, why was the guy carrying a rifle anyway? If he was trying to get the child, shouldn’t he have had his hands free? Seems to me that a better way would have had an unarmed agent (surrounded by armed agents) pick up the kid.

Also, what was Elian doing in a closet? Either that family has some really strange sleeping arrangements, or else they were actively interfering with the raid by hiding Elian.

appointed?/QUOTE]

I believe the 11th circuit court has just made a decision on that one, and their decision was “no”.

AARRGGHH!!! Let’s try that one again. This time I’ll use the “preview” button…

I believe the 11th circuit court has just made a decision on that one, and their decision was “no”.

MILROYJ says:

No one, except you, has argued that she should be “brought up on charges” for anything. You obviously disagree with her actions, but it she did not exceed her authority in issuing the orders she did. I also fail to see what that has to do with the agents pointing their guns at the adults in the house, but then I fail to see the point of carrying a gun into a hostile environment if you are not willing to keep it in a position where you can readily deploy it – i.e., in your hand.

I think that Elian and his father will wait in the U.S. until the Eleventh Circuit makes a decision regarding Elian’s ability to request asylum. Assuming the Circuit Court determines Elian is too young to speak for himself, and further determines that his father has the right to speak for him, my guess would be that he and his father will finally be allowed to go home.

Actually, everything is up to Juan Miguel, which I think is as it should be. Elian is his son; Juan Miguel is his surviving parent and is ready, willing and able to act in that capacity. Juan Miguel should be allowed to speak for his son, just as any American parent should be allowed to speak for his or her child, when important decisions affecting the child’s future are at stake, and the child is too young to speak for his- or herself.

In my opinion, no. What for? There is no indication that Elian’s interests are divergent from those of his father, unless you presume that he would prefer to stay in the States if he was old enough to make that choice. That’s no a presumption we can make, however, and since Elian is not old enough to speak for himself, his father should speak for him. That is his father’s right, not the right of some unrelated guardian ad litem.

THE RYAN asks:

If I’m not mistaken, there was an unarmed, female, bilingual agent present who actually took Elian out of the house. The armed agent opened the closet, however, and did so with his gun up, for the obvious reason that he could not have known who or what was behind the door – maybe someone with a cocked gun.

Good point. I assume they were doing their pathetic best to hide him, which is itself a refutation of the argument that the Gonzaleses intended to cooperate and that the same result could have been obtained but just knocking on the door and asking for the child.

If you look at the other photos taken by Alan Diaz just before and after that famous one (they’re in Newsweek’s current issue), you can see that the agent with the gun did not take Elian away from the fisherman holding him. Instead, he let the fisherman that was holding him continue to hold him, but made the fisherman walk out of the closet and the room they were all in (presumably in order to hand Elian over to the female agent). In the famous photo, the agent’s left arm was apparently reaching for the fisherman to pull/guide (your choice of words) him out of the closet.

Isn’t fairly common to appoint a guardian in custody issues? That way, the child’s best interests are being represented, rather than one of the protagonists.

This is not a custody issue. It is an immigration issue.

Absent a determination that leaving a child with a parent would place him in danger, it is not at all common to remove a child from a parent and place him with a guardian while a custody issue is being resolved.

Incidentally, there have been a lot of references here to what Elian’s best interests are. It’s important to keep in mind that the “best interests of the child” isn’t always the standard used in deciding where to award custody of a child.

Florida case law states that the best interests standard is to be used only when deciding custody between two fit parents. When the contest is between a fit parent and a nonparent, the parent’s right to raise his/her own child takes precedence. (Nero v. McWhite, 1985; Alderman v. Alderman, 1986; Kingsley v. Kingsley, 1993)

So again, if the Miami Gonzalezes can’t provide evidence that Juan Miguel is an unfit parent, they haven’t got a leg to stand on.

JODI: Go to the US Code, Title 18, and the sect I mentioned. It gives the Feds juristiction in dealing with certain nationals, extralegals, etc., re Kidnapping.

And I agree an asylum hearing is not the same as a custody hearing, BUT this one may look & sound quite a bit like one. I will be interested in it-- If the 11th Circuit says Elian can stay, the shit WILL hit the fan…

What is your opinion of my idea re the alterative(to the assault) plan of having a Jugde issue a court order to the Miami relatives to return Elain, with a $10000/day contempt fine. A certain Judge I know thought that was a very interesting alternative…

DANIEL says:

The section you mentioned is 18 U.S.C. sec. 1207. There is no 18 U.S.C. sec. 1207.

No, it won’t. The court will quite properly not address itself to the issue of custody at all. The fallout from the court’s decision may well impact the issue of custody (if Elian is deemed to be competent to petition for asylum), but the Eleventh Circuit’s decision will neither look nor sound like a custody hearing. You are assuming, by the way, that the Eleventh Circuit’s decision will settle the issue of asylum; this is not correct. Even if the Eleventh Circuit decides Elian can ask for asylum, the asylum hearing would be held as an independent proceeding.

I think that a monetary penalty would not be appropriate in this case. First, legally, our system does not attempt to punish financially people who have taken or kept children to whom they have no right; it obtains the return of those children for the person or persons having the right to custody. Second, factually, there is no indication that such a strategy would work in this case or any case. The Gonzaleses do not have the financial resources to pay such a fine and so they would likely disregard it. Who cares if the government is fining you ten grand a day when you don’t have it, will never have it, and otherwise the government is leaving you alone? The fact is that the levying of a monetary penalty rarely has much impact unless the parties have the ability to pay it and the government has the ability to inforce it. In this case, neither of those statements is true.

I would like to thank Jodih for her excellent posts. I now have a much better understanding of the complex legal and jurisdicitonal issues raised by this case.

mind you, I still have trouble spelling “jurisdictional.”