I hearby declare my self a duck. And so it shall be. Feed me bread.
“Leelah” was free to believe whatever he wanted, but his belief didn’t make it so.
If Josh’s suicide note is fundamentally true, and I see no reason to doubt it, then being called a him by his parents was far from the only thing that lead him to suicide. His parents could certainly have been much more supportive and helpful, as would I have been in their shoes.
Yes. It should.
Hey look, someone who I actually believe is actually interested in learning something!
Basically, it’s been established that certain elements of the brain differ between men and women. Well, numerous studies have found that in various parts of the brain of people suffering from GD, it matches the profile of their target gender, rather than their body’s gender. That is, a FTM transsexual will, despite having female genitals, have a brain structure that is in many regards far more similar to that of a man than of a woman. I could cite a lot of studies here, but the Wikipedia page on the subject has a great listing of scientific studies in the citations section, and I’d mostly be cribbing off that anyways, so feel free to take a look. Indeed, it’s perhaps worth mentioning that these differences occur in transsexuals who have not been treated at all - it isn’t caused by the hormones given as therapy.
Essentially, what this and some other research heavily implies is that GD is caused by some mixup during gestational development. Something goes wrong, and the brain develops itself “out of sync” with the body - essentially, a female brain in a male body, or vice versa. The NHSalso has a pretty solid page on the subject.
The important takeaway here is that the idea of “gender” depending entirely on what’s in your pants can be thrown out the window. It’s simply not accurate. The fact is that differences in gender can be very clearly seen within a person’s brain structure, and that occasionally, that doesn’t match up. Now, which is more important is a matter of personal opinion; however, for those suffering from gender dysphoria, it’s very clear: the brain is the more important one. It’s what tells them who they are. Refusing to acknowledge this is asinine, ignorant, and cruel. Acknowledging to someone who is female, who knows that they are female, but is stuck with a male body (and let’s be clear - that’s what’s going on here) that they actually are female goes a long way towards helping them deal with the problems that GD brings with it (it’s not categorized as a mental disorder for nothing, regardless of how many people misinterpret that to mean “these people need to get over their gender problems”). In fact, you can see the effects of this incredibly clearly.
And what of furkin and other in and Na’vikin and other people whose brain tells them that they aren’t what they physically are?
If Josh had killed himself because his parents refused to accept that he should be living on Pandora, would you be talking about how they’re wrong for insisting that their Na’vi was a human?
Either sex/gender is defined by biology or the concept is entirely worthless.
And many of Leelah’s most fervent supporters would shake your hand and say enthusiastically, “yes, it is!” (Look up the terms “genderqueer” and “genderfluid” sometime.)
Well, they’d do that after yelling at you for comparing the physical and emotional violence, often fatal, they get to the -kin concept, which you make no effort to show compares in any way on a biological (brain) level to their lives.
And I apologize if I’m making wrong assumptions here. Just speaking from my own reading experience from the outside.
Do you really not understand that the brain is biological, and that it appears that the brain is more important than the 23rd pair of chromosomes or genital appearance in determining gender? This has been shown by both psychological and biological studies, so why are you - in your pursuit of truth - disagreeing with it?
I don’t (unlike some people) think the concept of gender is entirely worthless, but to make it so important that you would deny someone their chosen identity is absurd.
As for otherkin, I know of no scientific or psychological research into it. Neither do I know of anyone being traumatised by not being referred to in their chosen fashion as regards it. So, until there’s more information, it doesn’t seem a particularly relevant comparison.
Wow. You’re actually going out of your way to disrespect a dead child in order to score points on the internet. Great way to kick off the new year, Smapti.
Last time I checked, brain structure is sort of a biological thing.
He honestly doesn’t seem to see any difference between a transgendered individual and one that insists he’s Napoleon, and doesn’t see why he should “humor” either.
One reason while years of therapy and treatment are required before irreversible genital surgery is because yes, there ARE some delusional people out there and its important to distinguish between them and the real deal, and to determine who would actually be helped by treatments that are irreversible and who would not, or would benefit more from alternative treatments. No one walks into a surgeon’s office with a wad of cash and says “cut me, doc!”.
Brain structures ARE biology. Hormones ARE biology. Intersex conditions ARE biology.
This is exactly what public high schools teach about sex and gender. I didn’t realize it was controversial. We teach that sex is a dichotomy, and gender is a continuum, as is sexual preference. (Some schools use “sexual orientation.”) I realize this is problematic for certain chromosomal irregularities and asexuals, but teachers make it work.
I don’t think most Dopers understand the practical implications of telling children, “You get to choose your gender.” It is a nightmare. Names are easy, unless the parents object. If “Jack” wants to be “Juliet,” and the parents are opposed, on what grounds, and at what age, do kids get to pick? My school tries to be as accommodating as possible, but some things can’t be accommodated. There are state laws that bar males from using female restrooms and vice versa. For good reason: Do any of you want senior boys hanging out in your freshman daughter’s locker room? On what grounds would you ban them, if gender is self-reported and mutable?
A lot of you seem to accept as true that if Leelah had been accepted at home, she would still be alive today. I realize she makes this claim, but she was quite troubled. We’ve had boys change their identity to female, select girls’ names, wear dresses, make-up, and long hair. And then decide after a few months that they weren’t female, after all. Leelah might have been supported at home at 14, decided at 16 that “she” was actually a gay male, and been furious at her parents for allowing her to identify as female. It has happened before. He may very well have killed himself as Josh, a gay male, or a straight one. (I realize that this differs with some of your definitions of gender identity, but I’m not sure I agree with the assertions that gender does not have to align with biology, but is still inherent and immutable. How do you explain kids who switch genders and then switch back? Were they wrong when they were identifying as the opposite-sex gender? Or were they really “females” for the four months they lived as “females” but became “males” when that was what they decided?)
These are excellent identity issues for adults to explore, not children.
I think there is nothing wrong with recommending to children that some things have to wait for adulthood: intercourse, changes in gender identity, use of tobacco, playing the lottery, going to strip joints, gambling at the casino, etc. What is the alternative? At what age are we going to let children choose their gender? Any age? 8? 12? 16? Are elementary children going to change back and forth several different times between kindergarten and 5th grade? What does gender identity even mean to an 8-year-old? Or a 15-year-old?
I realize that one argument against wait-til-you’re-older is that gay and transgender teens commit suicide at a higher rate than heterosexual teens. But society can accept differences in gender identity and sexual preference without advocating that children make public pronouncements that are very difficult to reverse. I think we’re already doing a lot to expand acceptance, not just “tolerance”, of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and transsexual citizens.
You confuse my insistence on proper pronouns with thinking transgenderism isn’t real. It is and people living with it deserve dignity and support.
If I wanted to disrespect him there are other things I could say. I don’t want to say those things because I do feel sorry for him and empathize with him and the suffering he endured in his life.
When you show me someone who can change their male organs into female organs by thinking at them then I will acknowledge that the brain is a bigger part of gender than ones chromosomes.
What someone’s chosen identity is is irrelevant to what gender they are, and it is not necessary to assert that someone identifying as a woman is one in order for them to live as a woman.
Past interactions had already led me to this conclusion. I’m not sure why we’ve decided to treat Smapti like the new Dio. He’s been debunked, anyone can tell that, so there’s no reason not to just ignore him. Stop letting him ruin threads that had nothing to do with him in the first place.
Hey, good news - they don’t. Gender identity is no more a choice than a person’s actual sex is. They don’t get to choose, but I reckon it’s a little more problematic to “choose” for them - especially given that they seem to know damn well it ain’t so.
Okay, serious question. Do you honestly think, given the amount of shit transgendered people get, that anyone would do this? No, seriously. Just being suspected of being gay is enough in many schools to forever relegate you to the lower rungs of the social ladder. Going and saying “I’m transsexual”? Yeah, your peers are gonna welcome you with open fucking arms!
Oh.
Wait.
This. Does. Not. Happen.
Outside of that retarded, tonedeaf episode of South Park, this shit does not happen. It never has been an issue before, and it never will be. The far greater issue, in fact, is the abuse that transgendered people experience when they go to the bathroom that is correct for their gender. Ask Una Persson about it, she has some stories to tell. The idea that if we started to take transgendered people seriously, we’d have the issue of boys abusing that to perv on girls is a failure both in theory and in what limited practice we’ve had.
And on a side note, you do realize that for the most part it goes beyond “the child says so”, right? Transgendered children tend to express their belonging to the opposite gender as persistent, insistent, and consistent, another thing which puts to lie the asinine comparisons to children playacting as dogs.
Oh, and for what it’s worth? Make them go to a psychologist. Make them get certified. This should happen anyways, if their parents aren’t total morons. But let’s not pretend that we’ve got some epidemic of pervy kids pretending to be the opposite gender for cheap thrills. That stereotype is complete and utter horse shit.
You know, this might be the kind of thing real counseling with people who understand issues of gender identity and sexuality could resolve. You know, real therapists, not the shitheads she got sent to. I’ve never heard of transsexuals who acted like that, and I’m not sure how seriously to take the claim.
Also, I feel the need to drop this again. Even if Leelah ended up regretting her decision, guess what: having her parents support her and be by her, rather than acting like disgusting shits about the whole thing may very well have made quite a lot of difference.
Actually, if you read one of my earlier posts in the thread, you’d see that for most transsexuals tested, gender does align with biology - their brain makeup, to be precise. They showed brain chemistry that was characteristic for their *target *gender, rather than their sex.
And yet we still have stories like the 4-year-old who wanted to cut off her penis. The young children who recognize very early on that they are of the opposite gender. The people like Leelah who realize early on that something isn’t right but can’t figure it out until they learn what it is. And while we wait for the child to mature, the mental issues that all-too-often come along with Gender Dysphoria get worse, and the ability to transition passably becomes more and more difficult.
At what age are we going to let children choose to have autism? No, seriously, that’s basically what you’re saying, and it’s phenomenally dumb. They aren’t choosing.
Spend some time reading up on the psychological profile of people suffering from GD. As the APA pamphlet I linked above made very clear, there are certain characteristics. We’re not just letting children “decide” that they’re one gender or another. GD is a serious mental disorder that requires quite drastic treatment; as a result, the diagnostic toolkit has to be pretty decent.
We don’t just take the kids claims at face value.
If my (hypothetical, I don’t have kids yet) son told me, “I’m a girl”, I wouldn’t think too hard about it the first time. However, if he kept on saying it, and kept on trying to act like what he understood as a “girl”, I’d start to think a little harder about it. The time when he tries to take a knife to his genitals… You get the idea.
As I keep saying: persistent, insistent, consistent. The demands keep coming. They are consistent - the child isn’t saying that they’re one gender one day and another the next. The child makes it clear that this is a big deal to them, and keeps on making it clear that it’s a big deal to them.
Here’s the biggest difference between transgendered people and homosexual people.
If you tolerate and accept a homosexual person, they can be perfectly happy in their own skin. They can live a happy and fulfilled life free of persecution. This is not true for someone suffering from gender dysphoria, a very non-trivial chunk of transsexuals. These people are, well, suffering from GD. It causes stress, isolation, depression, poor self-esteem, disgust at their own genitalia, social isolation from their peers, anxiety, loneliness, and an increased risk of suicide.
You know why we don’t wait? Because there’s no advantage to waiting (the only permanent, irreversible change is not performed until the child is of age; all other changes are fairly easy to revert from - just stop taking the hormones) and the longer you wait, the further into puberty you get, the harder transitioning becomes. No matter how tolerant people get, this will remain a big fucking problem.
Why do you keep claiming that sex organs are relevant to gender, when both biology and psychology say otherwise?
So you would require some kind of clinical diagnosis of gender identity disorder (sorry I got my psych degree using the DSM-IV) in order to identify transgendered children? And what about those who do not fit the clinical criteria but still insist they are transgendered? If you do not let the kids self-identify without a diagnosis, how do you stop all the harms you claim arise?
You are correct that you can keep boys out of the girls bathroom if you have some diagnostic criteria they have to meet, but I don’t see this happening. Isn’t the whole point that they are who they SAY they are, not what their parents or a doctor claims?
I’m not suggesting the football team will wear wigs and dresses to shower with girls; I’m suggesting they’ll act like they always have but SAY they feel like girls, and therefore want to use the girls’ facilities. Why can’t a “girl” play football, have sex with women, wear only jeans and polos, and still be a “girl”? I have no idea what it feels like to “be” a girl. But I don’t think they are defined by wigs, makeup, and dresses. Are you suggesting it is an impossibility for a teenage boy to claim he feels like a “girl,” with no obvious feminine characteristics? Because I work with teens and I do not think it’s as far-fetched.
I don’t know how “real transsexuals” act. But I know for teenage transgendereds, they don’t always stay, “trans.”
Again, I understand neuropsychology, but I don’t know how to explain transgendereds switching back if their gender is literally hard-wired in their brain. Maybe for some, it’s like some bisexuals; they really feel it is a choice? Although, you can’t concede that because you’ve asserted repeatedly that gender is NOT a choice.
I don’t put as much stock in the necessity that people “transition passibly” as I do in the importance that they make an informed decision as an adult. Young children mutilating themselves suggests a need for counseling, not a need for sex changes.
I don’t understand. If there are no irreparable changes before age 18, why can’t those changes wait until 18? If taking female hormones for a male from 13-18 doesn’t retard his male development, why can’t he begin them at 18? I think they obviously retard his ability to develop as a normal male, even if the hormones are stopped.
I realize that some transgendered students live a tortured existence. No one wants this. I also realize that transgendered students aren’t “faking” anything and that Gender Identity Disorder is a real pathology. I just question the wisdom in allowing children to make decisions that can literally affect the rest of their lives before they are of the age of majority.
If a boy from ages 5 to 10 insists he is a girl, persistent, insistent, and consistent, or whatever the phrase was, I would still not advocate allowing him to present as female. I don’t think a 10-year-old should make that decision. I’m clearly in the minority, perhaps of one, but I do not find it as urgent as you do that he begin a transition. Get him in constant therapy, with the whole family, and be loving and understanding, but have him wait until 18.
You could be nastier than you’re being right now, yes. That doesn’t mean you’re not currently being nasty. You are.