Thank you for illustrating my point so elloquently!
(pashley ) “In other words, you can “put up” with something, but you don’t have to accept it.”
The nazis coould put up with the jews for just so long until…
There in lays my doubt of the sincerety of this entire appology.
What almost everyone else has already said. Plus, the RCC doesn’t seem to give much of a flying rip what people who aren’t Catholic, especially people in the US, think should be done.
And why should they?
Waste
Flick Lives!
Scylla -
On behalf of my fellow Canadians, let me be the first to appologize for Brian Adams, Celine Dion and Rich Little. 
If I understood your comment correctly, the appology was meant for god on behalf of the RCC. Is that correct?
Well, god, being the all knowing and all seeing chap that he is, I’m sure already knew how sorry the Pope was before this entire announcement. So for who’s benefit was it and who is going to applogize to the wronged? and when?
The Church’s policy on abortion is consistant with its theology…
Therefore, all life deserves the opportunity to be baptised. A woman having an abortion is committing murder of a soul, a far greater crime than simply taking a life - and as far as her life goes, presumably she has been baptized and will get her greater reward.
Don’t buy into any of the premises myself - but I do believe it is logically consistant. And understanding the premises helped me understand the whole right-to-life movement. If you believe the premises, then it is impossible to believe that a woman has a “right” to choose. The Catholic Church cannot possibly apologize for its abortion stance, or even tolerate abortion because of its theology.
There are, however, superior logical minds on this board to mine, which may find holes in the logic. So as not to open up the whole “abortion can-o-worms” keep in mind that the premises are a matter of faith.
GLWastefull -
Hmmm, why should the RCC care about what everyone else thinks… well…
If I may draw a parallel between the US as a world superpower and the RCC as a world religious superpower then let me sugget a reason why.
The Rev. Tutu (sp?) was quoted as saying in a recent interview when asked why the US should get involved in affairs that don’t seem to involve it’s interests… and I paraphrase… It’s the role of the US as a world super power to lead by example of morality and justice and to help the oppressed where-ever they may be in the world.
Similarly, since the RCC is the leading (most recognized) religous organization in the (western?) world then it similarly compells it to act in a moral and just way towards all people and not just the non-American Catholic ones.
…or perhaps not.
Catholics believe we must go before another party, confess our sins, and then perform an act of contrition as reparation.
I submit His Holiness was publicly announcing the apology, to acknowledge that wrongs were done, and that in itself, was an act of contrition. I’m not speaking for His Holiness, don’t get me wrong, I’m just speculating. He went before the world to apologize for things done to the world. If you did something to a person, you’d apologize to the person; if you offended a group, say, a religious group, you might want to apologize to the group, right?
I think credit should be given to His Holiness, that he did this. He made a big statement, in that people should apologize for what they do wrong.
Patrick Ashley
“For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown
My daughter, 3 and a half years old, constantly puts her feet up on the back of the seat of my car while in her car seat. I remind her constantly not to do that because it makes the seats dirty (and because I’m anal about my cars!). She always says she’s sorry and it make it hard for me to be angry with her for more than 10 seconds. The important thing of course is that she’s sorry.
Perhaps the important thing here is that the Pope is sorry… but he is considerably older as is the RCC. The act of my kid dirtying the seats is considerably less severe than the admited wrongs. I would expect something more substantial than the equivalent of “I’m sorry Papa, I’ll try not to do that again.”
(… hmmmm… suddenly I have the urge to pick up the phone and hear my daughter’s voice. )
And what about birth control? With all the venereal diseases out there and the fact that there would probably be fewer abortions if women who didn’t want children tried not to get pregnant in the first place, I think it’s only reasonable that the RCC change its policy on using protective measures.
Life is a tragedy for those who feel and a comedy for those who think.
And what about birth control? With all the venereal diseases out there and the fact that there would probably be fewer abortions if women who didn’t want children tried not to get pregnant in the first place, I think it’s only reasonable that the RCC change its policy on using protective measures.
Life is a tragedy for those who feel and a comedy for those who think.
Quick:
Draw away. Just realize that you are not stating a truism. Yes, the US is the lone remaining superpower. The RCC, however, is not the lone remaining religious superpower. And the fact of the matter is that the RCC does quite a lot to help the oppressed. Could they do more? Absolutely. But I salute them for what they have done just in the last fifty years, and imagine that they will continue to do more.
What, exactly, does this have to do with their stance on abortion? Or women as priests? Or any other damned thing? If you feel that the RCC should have a more relaxed stance on these things, then by all means start what a friend and I refer to as Vatican West. Or, you can continue to be upset and voice your opinion, and the RCC can continue to ignore your opinions.
Honestly, I disagree with their stance on abortion, women priests, and the like. I realize, though, that I’m an atheist whose take on these things matters not one iota to the movers and shakers in the RCC. Nor do I think that they should.
Waste
Flick Lives!
I don’t think our current Pope actually did any of the things he is apologizing for.
I dunno, Scylla. He is pretty old.
Waste
Flick Lives!
Well he’s not admitting to them.
Well, neither would I. Some of those things are decidedly less than nice.
Waste
Flick Lives!
Perhaps we aught to dig up some of the former popes and have them appologize too.
Honestly, as a practicing atheist myself, I never expected much from the RCC nor any religious organization for that matter. It just seems to me that if you are going to appologize for something, you ought to also demonstrate a)you’ve learned something from your mistakes and b)try to attone for it in some way.
Perhaps it’s my latent jewish roots speaking.
All you folks could be living in a pagan Germannic, Hunnic, Muslim, Magyar, pagan Nordic, Mongol or Turkic dominated Europe and maybe North America without the RCC. It is like the European eviction of the American Indians. I am the beneficiary of those big crimes done in the past. But I am smart enough to realize that I and this society and probably civilization as we know it would not exist except that those crimes occured.
How about getting some American rabbis together and apologize to Black Americans for the resentment that they have against Jews. It would be the Christian thing to do.
Huh?..
RoboDude:
That would tantamount to condoning homosexuality, and the Bible clearly states that homosexuality is an abomination.
Agreed, they need to be dismissed or reassigned, the small amount that there is
I am not aware of this, can you cite a reference. Seems hard to believe.
[birth]
And what about birth control? With all the venereal diseases out there and the fact that there would probably be fewer abortions if women who didn’t want children tried not to get pregnant in the first place, I think it’s only reasonable that the RCC change its policy on using protective measures.
[/quote]
Again, according to the Bible, life is a gift from God, and birth control denies that gift. Kinda like getting a present for your birthday, and just handing it back to the giver.
There may also be the concern that “ok-ing” birth control would be an endorsement of illicit sex. I don’t know that, I’m guessing.
I agree that we should reduce the abortion rate (I’d like to see it to zero, but i try to be a realist).
Patrick Ashley
“For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown
Quick, all of Western civilization, of which you are apparently a waste product, owes a debt to the RCC. From the fall of Rome until Luther posted his theses, the RCC motivated, ruled, protected, abused, fostered and terrorized the people of Europe. For better or worse, the RCC put Western civilization on its feet. No question that a whole bunch of eggs were broken making that omelette. But you cannot separate the formative years of our civilization from the RCC. My earlier point was that without the RCC any of those invasions mentioned could have conquered Europe. Where would you be then?
For all of you who actually care what the pope thinks or says, don’t worry. 2000 years from now, a pope will apologise for today.
(I predict that there will still be a few hundred catholics, deep in the forests , a few miles from a lost tribe of much more advanced pygmies. Pygmi Paleantologists will think the catholics quaint ancient ways should be protected and studied. )
Every generation thinks their “ancestory” contains some wacky backward views, but that “they” have it just about figured out.
I can only imagine a bulletin board in 3001, commenting on the utter backwardness of todays “majority” views. By then, everyone will be “easily” able to see the views as ridiculous, but of course, at the time for some reason, it seems like pulling teeth.
Unfortunately, sometimes people just have to die off naturally , before things can move ahead.
Egad! Was that gloomy enough?