Gore's gauntlet thrown, Bush's response (new thread, shoot me!)

[Stoid]

What Tejota said!

stoid

[JustAnotherGuy]

*Originally posted by Tejota *
**

*Originally posted by JustAnotherGuy *
**Stoidela and Tejota,

Perhaps you could open your minds or eyes a bit to see what is really going on, but I doubt it since the problems have been posted again and again and again.
**

Ok. So you start off as a troll. I should really just ignore you, but I’m in a pissy mode. So I won’t. However you just lost the presumtion that you are arguing from anything other than blind partisan interest.

Actually, I am proud to be a Republican as you might decipher from any of the MANY posts I have made on this board… however, I believe my views on this to be more objective than most. troll indeed sigh [Tejota]Mommy, someone has a different opinion and you said I can never be wrong. [/Tejota]

I’m in a pissy mood now too. Let the frolic begin.

Unethical?

Yes, unethical. If you are Republican, I really don’t know how you came to your liberal partisan conclusions. Must have been brainwashed in a drunken stupor somewhere, perhaps by Stoidela. (of course her latest few posts have seemed reasonable, so maybe she was just in a pissy mood)

That’s my position. The whole argument that “because canvassing boards don’t have a uniform standard, it’s immoral to do recounts” is just nonsense. It is an established fact that the error rates inherant in the counting process have MORE variation county to county than any possible variation in ‘chad’ standard county to county.

I take it you mean the machine count when you refer to the ‘established fact’.

I don’t think you will find me disagreeing with you on that. However, I would amend to say more uncounted ballots rather than error rates, perhaps just a semantic difference.

There is already a larger percentage of uncounted votes in counties that use punch cards than those that use optical scans. If you honestly believe that a lack of standards for counting ‘chad’ is unfair to votors, then it is even more unfair to allow some counties to use opscan systems.

I do. I think I am very clear on that. Make them illegal if they are so inaccurate. Don’t wait until they make a difference in a NATIONAL election to ‘realize’ as if it weren’t already an ‘established fact’ that these ballot types are subject to inaccuracies in intent. What they have done is manipulated the election so that it is now potentially changed based upon a few Counties, not the voice of the people, the voice a few thousand people who’s votes are being counted by one of the two choices.

Even using the most permissive standard for counting pregnant chad still leaves a larger undervote than what you get with an opscan system even without a handcount.

I don’t believe I ever disagreed with that. My point has consistently been about the Gore camp’s concern with only the uncounted votes in a few Democratic strongholds while clinging to a EVERY VOTE COUNTS montra.

Yes, a standard for chad counting would be better, but even if there isn’t one. A hand recount doesn’t create inequities, it only removes them (selectively).

I agree with you so long as it is a completely fair, nonpartisan hand count, which we do not have. We have a Democrat counting the ballots with a Democrat and a Republican watching them count. 2:1 on opinions of the voters intent. Even dispite this, it is unfair in that ALL punch ballots are not being recounted, only a precious few Democratic strongholds. The people are not being heard, only the left people are being heard.

As far as I know, hand recounts are happening (or have already happned) in ALL large counties that use punch cards. The ‘selectiveness’ of this recount is mostly in Bush’s head.

Well maybe this is the problem between our views on this issue. The reason I detest the Gore camps position on this is that they profess that they want EVERY VOTE TO COUNT and then they, even if I accept your knowledge, are doing hand recounts in all LARGE counties that use punch cards. (BTW, there is at least one Republican stronghold of significant size using punch ballots) I don’t see why you can’t call a spade a spade, I suppose I never will.

You keep using that word ‘inequity’ but really It’s just propaganda. As I said. All large counties that used punch cards have been, or are being recounted.

So only the voters in large counties that use punch cards and lean heavily Democrat are important. Thank you, that gives me a good insight into your idea of equity in a national election. It is also probably a good indication of what Gore’s ideas on equity are.

You’re gonna have to prove that this is unfair, because as far as I can tell it isn’t and I’m certainly not just going to take your word for it.

I cannot make the blind see. When I get these powers, you will be the first to know. However, the below numbers should help to clarify my reasoning.

**
Unfortunately for Gore, since Bush has already been counted President, he stands in a superior position.

**

Really? so the press has the power to elect a president by merely saying so? Or are we taking Bush’s word for it now? Since we have yet to have even 1 accurate count in Fla, I would say the state is still to close to call.

We have had 2, count them TWO, machine counts in Florida that made Bush the winner. I never said there was a 100% accurate count of Florida… I have news for you, there never will be and the Gore camp isn’t pushing for one because even they realize it would be ludicrous at best to make such a statement.

The SOS doesn’t have the authority to tell them not to recount. She only has the authority to ignore the results.

I never said she had that authority. I said it is a waste of time for them to pursue it and she is well within her rights to deny the admission of their results and should deny their admission since they were so rebellious as to refuse to meet her very simple request for justification of the admission of a hand count by a stated date.

And if the SOS hadn’t tried to hard to prevent the recounts that she had no right to prevent, Dade would have started several days before. They stopped primarily because they believed they had to listen when she told them to.

(I thought that was Bush that tried to stop them, but I may be uninformed) Well, if they knew they were right by law, why did they stop? I recall someone asking on the deadline or shortly thereafter whether they would be arrested if they did their hand count. Curious, the SOS said no and they continued on. I can only assume that Dade was unsure of their justification for a hand recount.

You are welcome to look for ulterior motives in the Dade recount. I think you are on a wild goose chase though. Gore asked for a hand recount there at the same time as he asked for one in Palm, & Broward. Dade just took longer to make up their minds.

Well, they decided to take a time luxury they did not have afforded to them under Florida law. It should and will cost them the admission of any hand recounts, thus the only purpose for the hand count at this time is a partisan purpose to further shadow this presidency.

I meant richer counties, not richer people. Small counties have more money per voter to spend on election equipment. (or they do ALL the voting by hand).

Of course not only rich people voted for Bush, He also did well among the self rightuous and the intellectually challenged.

Oh, that’s right you throw yourself in the rich category. How does it feel to belong to a group with the self-righteous and intellectually challenged? I wonder which category you place me in.

If you recall, Gore had until 3 days after the election to ask for recounts. The first 2 days after were consumed by machine recounts, so by the time anyone KNEW that a full hand recount for the state would be the only fair thing to do it was too late for Gore to demand it.

Well, if these inequities were so obvious, then in the pursuit of having EVERY VOTE COUNT, I would have requested a recount of all 67 counties. But I say what I mean and mean what I say. Some people do not.

If Gore and Bush BOTH called for a full handcount, then they could probably get some action, but even then, at this point a court would have to require it.

I agree with you on this, at least to do a sampling of each County. But again it falls to the courts and I for one abhor the fact that this election is being won or lost by attorneys and judges, not by the people.

But you may have been paying attention when Bush said ‘no way’ to the full handcount.

Yes, and I disagree with his position. I don’t believe I ever supported Bush on this board, he is not my idea of a good presidential candidate. But neither is Gore, even less so, which is why I voted partisan.

At this point it is moot, Gore can ask for it, but the only thing he has a legal right to have is the handcount in the counties that he requested it in originally.

How convenient for him.

Are you suggesting that he should stop the hand recounts he asked for because Bush doesn’t want to play?

No. I am suggesting as I have all along that his motives in requesting a hand count from four Democratic strong holds, not all punch-ballot counties, only those four was partisan maneuvering. Which is fine. I really don’t see the fault in it, so long as he and the blind masses that worship at his feet stop claiming it is to make EVERY VOTE COUNT.

But since he invented the internet, saved a desk-less child and brought to light an elderly woman’s dog’s medicine bill, I guess it is plain logic to his faithful Gordiots.

Or maybe he should be suing to be allowed to hand count the whole state?

I don’t know about suing. From what I have read the law prohibits it now, no matter who requests it. I would personally like to see the State of Florida take it upon themselves to attempt a non-partisan sampling and manual recount of all Counties with significant inconsistencies. But as I have said, noone is playing fair. You can sniff Gore’s ass all you want, it still stinks. You can lick Harris’ butt all day and it still tastes tainted. I don’t even want to think about Bush’s behind.

Then you should be pleased. Today, in front of the Supreme Court of Fla. David Boies argued that that court could order hand recounts of the whole state.

I would be pleased. It doesn’t change the fact that Gore is not standing on holy ground, which was my point all along.

Any machine count that used machines in republican districts that are more accurate thant he machines that are used in democratic districs IS PARTISAN.

Okay, let’s see now. The districts select their voting boards that decide upon the machinery and methodology of the count. So because Democratic leaders, who supposed knew as an ‘established fact’, that the ballot cards were likely not to count every voter intent: A. did not have standards in place for hand counts and B. elected to remain with this inaccurate method of voting, we are supposed to feel sorry for them?

Also, I’m only a Gore supporter in this because Bush has been behaving so badly. I’m actually a republican, (though ashamed to be associated with Bush in any way). Oh, and I’m rich to

I’m no Bush fan either. But I sure as hell am not a Gore fan, as many Democrats aren’t either.
Yes, Bush behaved badly. The problem is that you either don’t want to or can’t see that Gore behaved badly too. I’ll even grant you that Bush behaved even worse, he tried to use the courts to overturn the law!

So, I would say based on your refusal to admit that the machine count is partisan all by it self, you have no business saying that you are capable of non-partisan thinking.

I never said I was non-partisan. As long as you understand how partisan your position is, I’m a happy man. But you probably think that because you professed to be a republican up above and you are suppporting the Gore Camp’s position, that makes you non-partisan. I can still see in spite of my Party’s propaganda.

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I would personally be for a hand count of the entire State, however, the time for that request was eleven days ago and barring the Republican Secretary of State getting objective, which is about as likely as Daley doing likewise, I don’t see it happening.

**

(And then you go an prove you are capable of it.)Agreed.

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To put it gently, the Gore camp screwed up.

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Gore camp screwed up? No this is Bush’s screw up. He had the right to ask for recounts in districts that favored him.

Agreed. And that would have been an equally partisan move. I never, anywhere said that Gore did anything illegal, just partisan. The unethical comes in claiming to be for EVERY vote to count when really meaning every Democratic vote.

But there wasn’t then (and there isn’t now) any reason to believe that there are any uncounted, valid votes in counties other than those currently doing recounts.

If you don’t believe that there are any uncounted, valid votes in counties other than those doing recounts you are clearly a fool. Any idiot could deduct that there would be uncounted, valid votes in other counties. You have proclaimed yourself to be of lesser intelligence than any idiot, I’m sure it was not your intent.

At the time the deadline for asking for recounts passed, Gore had no justification for asking for a recount in the whole state.

Why did he have no justification? The ONLY county at that time that was screaming of uncounted ballots was Palm Beach County. If he could deduct that these other three Democratic strongholds might also have uncounted ballots and as he professed, wanted to make sure that EVERY VOTE COUNTS, he should have requested a manual recount of EVERY SINGLE COUNTY. Otherwise it is partisan. You may not see it because as I indicated you seem to have a bit of Gore in your eyes, but it was a partisan action.

It’s a little partisan to blame him for not knowing then how this would play out and how much FUD the Bush team would be throwing out.

Nope, it’s a little partisan to not see the inequity in saying EVERY VOTE COUNTS and then requesting hand counts of the Democratic strongholds only. That is very partisan.

**
if they had done a 1% hand count in each, it would probably still be only a few Democratic power houses that would have met a pre-set condition for a full hand recount. This would have been embraced by most Americans IMHO.
**

20/20 hindsight.

No, if you allege there are uncounted ballots in three other counties because there were allegations in Palm Beach County; a nonpartisan, EVERY VOTE COUNTS position would be a full manual recount. At a minimum, a hand recount of all punch ballot Counties would seem more equitable than what we have now. It only required minimal forsight.

And what makes you an expert on the motivation of the Gore team. Are you an insider?

Offer any other logical explanation. Are you a buffoon?

I suspect that it has little to do with a realization of inequity because (As I’ve pointed out before) a partial hand recount really isn’t inequitable.

It is to the other punch ballot Counties that are considered unimportant enough for a hand recount. It is to any voter in any other County in the State of Florida who’s vote was not counted due to a mechanical glitch.

It may seem so if you are operating from the assumption that all counties in Fla use the same punch cards for voting. But it turns out not to be the case.

Please cite with descriptions of all Counties punch ballots.

I think it more likely that the decision to request a full recount of the state is more about the realization that the majority of Americans aren’t paying close enough attention to the situation in Fla to realize that the Bush contention that hand recounts are unfair is bullshit.

Ahhh, the explanation, all the Americans that don’t agree with me are obviously not coherent enough to understand what is happening. Such arrogance! Well, hand recounts can be unfair as was pointed out several times. Hand recounts of only a few counties when EVERY VOTE MUST COUNT is certainly unfair.

The suggested to do the whole state because it won’t really make any difference and it effectively counters the Bush position about ‘selective’ recounts being unfair.

Fine, if it wouldn’t make a difference, couldn’t anyone in the Gore camp use just the tiniest bit of intellect to forsee this being a perceived problem on November 10th? I can’t believe anyone is that stupid to be unable to see the perceived inequity of this hand recount.

Do your homework. It is fair if those are the only counties that have a non-trival number of ‘undervotes’. I’ve read everything that I can get about the numbers down there and so far there is no public evidence of undervotes in counties other than those.

Perhaps because there was no reason for them to check for undervotes because NOONE ASKED THEM TO. DUH!

But better yet… research!

The same type of voting system as is used in Palm Beach County is also used in:

Broward County with 573,396 votes towards Gore; Collier with 92,141 votes towards Bush, Highlands with 35,149 votes towards Bush, Hillsborough with 360,295 votes towards Bush, Lee with 184,377 votes towards Bush, Marion with 102,956 votes towards Bush, Osceola with 55,657 votes towards Gore, Pasco with 142,731 votes pretty close, leaning to Gore, Pinellas with 398,469 votes towards Gore and Sarasota Counties with 160,942 votes towards Bush.

Other style punch ballots are used in:

Miami-Dade with 625,443 votes towards Gore, Duval with 264,636 votes towards Bush, Sumter with 22,261 votes towards Bush, Martin with 62,013 votes towards Bush, Glades with 3,365 votes towards Bush, Nassau with 23,581 votes towards Bush nearly 3:1, DeSoto with 7,805 votes towards Bush, Dixie with 4,666 votes towards Bush, Gilchrist with 5,395 votes towards Bush, Hardee with 6,233 votes towards Bush, Indian River with 49,622 votes towards Bush, Jefferson with 5,642 votes towards Gore, Madison with 6,162 votes pretty close, and Wakulla with 8,587 votes towards Bush.

That is a total of 25 counties using punch ballots. Since the inequity of their count is solely assumed to be that chads are not thoroughly punched, they are all susceptable to the same inequities. Yet the Gore camp, in it’s high ground of EVERY VOTE COUNTS, only wanted the hand recount of four counties. Of all of those counties with punch ballots, there are 1,674,202 votes for Bush and 1,879,687 votes for Gore. However, Gore would prefer to hand count the 619,807 Bush votes and 985,095 Gore votes as an indication of the intent of the American people. As EVERY VOTE COUNTS.

Not only does that give a representation of nearly 2:1, but changes the favoritism of the punch ballots from a 48/52 split to a 39/61 split. If you fail to see the inequity, I can only pity you for the failed efforts of your mathematics teachers.

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As one who can see the flip side, I understand that these Counties had the punch ballot and expectations of more inaccuracy. But if Gore had even requested hand counts of all Counties with punch cards he would look more credible

**

More revisionist history. The deadline for that request passed before there was reason to believe that it was necessary, or even warranted.

Wrong. I can’t prove you are wrong, you have to listen to that inner voice that perhaps was failed to be implanted. Jimminy Cricket where are you? See above, it is the only proof I have to offer.

Actually, what she did wrong was to act as co-chair for the committee to elect Bush. It was her job to oversee the election. I’ll bet she took an oath at some point when she too office. She violated that oath the minute she joined the Bush election team.

No. I can’t see how any electoral position can be expected to be nonpartisan since they are appointed by the ruling party. I think you got that wrong. But she should have stepped aside as a show of propriety if nothing else.

The people of Fla should sue her for breach of trust.

I’m sure the Democratic coffers will see to it that she is sued, don’t worry.

**
They both did solely what was in their own best interests, maybe not the ‘wrong’ thing to do, but certainly not the ‘every vote counts’ position by either side.
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No Gore did something that was at once the right thing to do AND in his own best interest. The fact that it was in his interest doesn’t make it wrong, nor does it make it any less the right thing to do.

Gore claimed and continues to claim that he wants EVERY VOTE COUNTED, perhaps you forgot the original intent of this thread? Since there can be assumed to be a percentage of valid votes uncounted in ALL COUNTIES, and definately in all counties using a punch ballot, it certainly was not right to declare a desire for the vote to be counted accurately while only showing a care for a few counties that favor him 61:39.

I can tell that you are disappointed in Bush’s behavior in this. And you should be, but you are attempting to make yourself feel better by saying that they are both equally bad.

BUZZZZ, try again.
I was against Gore’s actions before Bush ever made a legal move.

But they aren’t.

wrong.

Gore is doing the right thing here,

wrong.

Bush isn’t.

right.

Now I’ll grant that in this case, the right thing helps Gore, so we don’t (yet) know if he would do the right thing even if it hurt him. You make the assumption that he would not. But you have no evidence, so you are not justified in painting them with the same brush.

Yeah, I’m pretty sure I do. His importance placed solely upon districts that he heavily carries pretty much painted out his resolve in the matter.

[Stoid]

and I’m leaving it in Tejota’s capable hands anyway, but I jsut wanted to say how deeply satisfying it is to see both Just and Tj responding item, by item, leaving no sentence unrebutted.

Bravo, boys! (At least, I think its boys)

stoid

[Sterra]

"I’ll even grant you that Bush behaved even worse, he tried to use the courts to overturn the law! "

That is what the courts were made for. If you want to remove the Supreme courts power to interpret the constution whos hand are you going to put it into? Popular Opinion?

Lets say that Congress passes a law making them all overlords over everyone. Then someone tries to challenge the constutionality of it, how dare he!

[ElvisL1ves]

*Originally posted by Asmodean *
**"I’ll even grant you that Bush behaved even worse, he tried to use the courts to overturn the law! "

That is what the courts were made for. If you want to remove the Supreme courts power to interpret the constution whos hand are you going to put it into? Popular Opinion?**

Please. The US Constitution clearly states that the selection of electors is left to the STATES. Bush went to FEDERAL court FIRST to try to have the STATE laws nullified. There’s a true anti-Washington conservative for you.

[ElvisL1ves]

JustAnotherGuy, you’re upset about only “Gore” counties doing recounts, and I agree that it will not produce the full finality that we all want. I agree that the entire state should be recounted.

Bush had that chance within the 72-hour window, and passed it up. OK, he didn’t know then what he knows now; maybe he should have the chance to reconsider. Fine with me; I want a full and fair count.

Gore offered the chance to do that AGAIN just a couple of days ago. Bush passed it up AGAIN. Why?

If you’re going to claim that it’s a Democratic plot, you need to do better than that, friend.

[JustAnotherGuy]

*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves *
**JustAnotherGuy, you’re upset about only “Gore” counties doing recounts, and I agree that it will not produce the full finality that we all want. I agree that the entire state should be recounted.

Bush had that chance within the 72-hour window, and passed it up. OK, he didn’t know then what he knows now; maybe he should have the chance to reconsider. Fine with me; I want a full and fair count.

Gore offered the chance to do that AGAIN just a couple of days ago. Bush passed it up AGAIN. Why?

If you’re going to claim that it’s a Democratic plot, you need to do better than that, friend. **

Actually… wrong thread. blush

My point was better placed on another thread entirely, which has been that Gore has been driven by a vote hunt. However, his offer for a full recount SHOULD have been accepted by Bush in the interest of A. more votes for Bush and B. the appearance of equal application; equal importance of every person’s vote. The problem, as has been stated previously, is that the Courts and the SOS would have to overturn the law to do a full hand recount of all punch ballot counties at this point. I’m not sure it is a good precedent to have the political candidates overriding law.

Again, Gore did nothing illegal, indeed, considering the stakes, it wasn’t all that improper, but it was definately aimed to make him the President. I simply point out that his position in requesting four County hand recounts in his political strongholds was driven by a desire to make him the winner, not to make every vote count.

Bush is no better, when he knew there was a contest of the validity of the vote, he should have likewise requested a hand recount of all questionable ballot styles.

Asmodean, the courts are made to interpret and enforce the laws, not to overturn them, which is what Bush was asking them to do. At least that is the way I understand it… a Florida law exists that permits the candidates to request a hand recount, Gore did so and Bush tried to stop the hand recount. After all the early complaining he did about making this an election by legal action, I expected more of him.