Govenor Scott Walker (R) WI

[furlibusea]

@furt

From the cite above

Bachelors degree, base income only, public school: $38,210 starting, $49,630 median
Bachelors degree, base income only, private school: $28,260 starting, $36,250 median

The average salary for a preschool teacher is 23,460 so what you are saying is that we need to get a bachelors degree, go through the hoops to maintain that degree, to be paid less than 5,000 dollars a year than someone with an associates degree and can pass the background check. Why on earth, when we need our children to be more educated than ever, would you want to start a race to the bottom of the barrel for the teachers that are supposed to get them there.

Originally posted by furt
Only about half of public-school teachers have advanced degrees. No state requires it.

That means that half of public school teachers do have advanced degrees. Research says that additional training directly results in better outcomes for their students. So does teacher experience. If Walker gets his way there will be no financial incentive for teachers to go get the that additional training. If pay raises can only be negotiated up to the cost of inflation, no one will stay longer than a few years because with each year they would fall farther and farther behind where they started.

On a side note, several of the best school districts do require that masters. We should be pushing up requirements. We want to get the best people in the classroom not the ones you can get for the cheapest.

[furt]

@furlibusea

Walker claims he campaigned on these issues. He must have been saying that in his head while his mouth said other things. Politifact says FALSE

Conflating “these issues” (plural) confuses the picture.

He did campaign quite explicitly on cutting back government wages and benefits. He has a long record of taking on public unions.

He did not say that he intended to take away bargaining rights.

[Thudlow_Boink]

@furlibusea

That means that half of public school teachers do have advanced degrees. Research says that additional training directly results in better outcomes for their students.

What are you basing this on? From what I’ve heard, there’s some controversy over the issue. Here’s an article I found online that addresses the issue and gives some links.

[furt]

@furlibusea

The average salary for a preschool teacher is 23,460 so what you are saying is that we need to get a bachelors degree, go through the hoops to maintain that degree, to be paid less than 5,000 dollars a year than someone with an associates degree and can pass the background check.

I’m sorry, I don’t understand this sentence.

Research says that additional training directly results in better outcomes for their students. So does teacher experience.

Actually, they don’t. Some studies indicate that advanced degrees make for *worse *teachers.

See here for one recent study, page 4 here for a charted survey of literature, and this for the Department of Education’s take.

Anecdotally, IME the research is right on: for every person who goes back for a Master’s to learn exciting new techniques, there’s another going back just to get the piece of paper so they can get a pay hike.

If pay raises can only be negotiated up to the cost of inflation, no one will stay longer than a few years because with each year they would fall farther and farther behind where they started.

This does not compute; pay raises equal to inflation would mean they stay even, not fall behind

On a side note, several of the best school districts do require that masters. We should be pushing up requirements. We want to get the best people in the classroom not the ones you can get for the cheapest.

Sounds like a good argument for merit pay, where the best teachers get more money and the worst ones get booted. Shame the unions have been opposing that for years.

[margin]

@Fear_Itself

“Republican, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son…”

Look where it got George Bush.

[furt]

Correction: CECR is Dept of Ed-funded, but they don’t speak for them per se.

[Page_Fault]

@furt

Sounds like a good argument for merit pay, where the best teachers get more money and the worst ones get booted. Shame the unions have been opposing that for years.

I’m normally all for merit-based advancement, as that just makes sense. Work hard, do well, and you advance in your profession. That’s the American Dream, right?

Unfortunately, this is a surprisingly terrible idea for some sectors, and teachers are one of them. In a corporation it makes sense, since a good accountant or programmer is objectively good, and makes the corporation money. In a classroom, the effectiveness of a teacher is much harder to judge, but that’s not the main concern.

In case you haven’t noticed, school districts and actual schools are heavily political. About once a decade there’s a big cry for censorship of classic books, a textbook crisis, or something else. This is normally the religious right doing it, but they aren’t the only ones, so nobody can really point fingers here. I’m not fond of seniority-only pay scales, but in this case, I think the union mechanism is actually better than the alternative.

Not to derail the thread, as I’m only thinking up an example here, but we already have a lot of hubbub about teaching ‘Intelligent Design’ around the nation. Without a union it would be much easier to just kick out any teachers who refuse to teach this junk science, as one example.

This isn’t to say the current system is without problems, but the unions came into being for a very important reason, and I don’t think they’re as obsolete as so many claim.

[Zeriel]

@furt

If pay raises can only be negotiated up to the cost of inflation, no one will stay longer than a few years because with each year they would fall farther and farther behind where they started.

This does not compute; pay raises equal to inflation would mean they stay even, not fall behind

If they were mandated to always equal inflation, that’s one thing (and it’s certainly at least fair, if they’re keeping the same job title and duties). Raises mandated to be “at most, the inflation rate” means that sometimes they are less, and then they have no way to catch back up that doesn’t run afoul of the aforementioned cap to the current inflation rate.

[furt]

1. There are plenty of ways to assess teachers; none are perfect individually, but they can be used in conjunction. There is a large body of literature on, and an entire section of the industry devoted to, teacher assessment.

2. If the primary function of teacher’s unions was keeping teacher’s unions from getting fired for teaching evolution, that would be wonderful. In reality, they spend far more time keeping teachers from getting fired for misconduct and incompetence. If a science teacher in Yeehaw Junction getting fired once every couple of years is the price to be paid for getting rid of a thousand creeps and idiots in the classroom, I’ll take that deal.

[furt]

@Zeriel

If they were mandated to always equal inflation, that’s one thing (and it’s certainly at least fair, if they’re keeping the same job title and duties). Raises mandated to be “at most, the inflation rate” means that sometimes they are less, and then they have no way to catch back up that doesn’t run afoul of the aforementioned cap to the current inflation rate.

The current WI bill specifies that they can go 1% over inflation.

Given that millions of taxpayers around the country have seen their wages frozen or even cut, I don’t see why government employees are somehow entitled to any raises at all, inflation or no. President Obama agrees – he wants to freeze government wages. I don’t think that’s unfair (even though one of the frozen salaries is my wife’s). It’s what happens in a crappy economy.

[elucidator]

Just as you note, there is a great deal of intellectual effort expended on the question of competent educating, as performed by teachers. Its not cut and dried. Before you can factually claim that teacher’s unions protect the incompetent, you first have to define incompetent. And you must define it in such a way that it is objective and fair. Otherwise, “incompetence” might well mean a refusal to “teach the controversy” about evolution. And if creationist loons grasp control of the local school board, you can bet your ass it would be, unless somebody stops them.

The purpose of the union is to protect its members, to be their advocate. There is nothing nefarious or underhanded about that, any more than hiring a lawyer is an effort to subvert or evade the law. It often is, but we are not permitted to make that presumption.

Until you have clear and objective definitions of what “incompetence” is, it is grossly unfair to accuse the teacher’s unions of protecting the incompetent. The teacher’s union will defend a teacher of the Jewish persuasion, that does not mean that the purpose of the teacher’s union is to protect Jews.

[Sitnam]

@margin

@Fear Itself

“Republican, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son…”

Look where it got George Bush.

Lets be fair. Wealth, connections and coke helped.

[mkecane]

“Caller posing as major GOP contributor dupes Walker”
http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/116737394.html

Not much to it in my opinion, but anything that puts more heat on Walker gets my support. Fuck him.

mkecane- private-sector employee in Republican-owned Waukesha County

[furlibusea]

@furt

I’m sorry, I don’t understand this sentence.

Sorry that sentence should have read " we need to get a bachelors degree, go through the hoops to maintain that degree, to be paid less than 5,000 dollars a year morethan someone with an associates degree and whocan pass the background check."

Actually, they don’t. Some studies indicate that advanced degrees make for *worse *teachers.

See here for one recent study, page 4 here for a charted survey of literature, and this for the Department of Education’s take.

Anecdotally, IME the research is right on: for every person who goes back for a Master’s to learn exciting new techniques, there’s another going back just to get the piece of paper so they can get a pay hike.

According to John Hattie in his book Visible Learning: A synthises of over 800 meta-analysies relating to achievement The meta-analysis of 537 studies looking at professional developnent, which graduate work would count as, the effects on student is an improvement of m= .63 where one standard deviation is = to 2 to 3 grade years of student achievement and .15 is the gain that students would make without doing much of anything. On the other hand, he says actual teacher certification programs come out to a .1.

…a good argument for merit pay, where the best teachers get more money and the worst ones get booted. Shame the unions have been opposing that for years.

Actually MTEA, the largest union in the state, recently called for merit pay. Then again the devil is in the details. If it is based entirely, like everything else has been lately, on test scores, good luck in getting any teachers in special ed classes or in the urban schools. Maybe if we looked at gains students made in a year that would work. I don’t like the idea of basing it on gains in an IEP because I can pretty much see that as a big old incentive to not write them based on reality.

[Nadir]

Whew, so much to catch up on this late in the thread:

@Harborwolf

…a bill that thus far nobody in this thread has been willing to defend.

Well there ya go - be careful what you ask for…

Public worker unions all over the country have been getting a free ride. No, they are not all getting it, and it varies by specific location and union, etc. But there are alot of them out there. If this is the only way to to bring them around, then so be it. Private sector workers generally pay quite a bit more for health insurance and traditional pension plans have basically gone extinct. There is nothing just or right about the scam many unions have been running on the taxpayer dime. The first five hours over 40 is free at my company. Wisconsin public workers would die of a stroke if that were suggested.

The gravy train has come to an end in Wisconsin. The dems know their shit is in the wind and there is nothing they can do about it, so they run away like the cowardly little children they are - total shitbags. Get with the program.

@pkbites

Or maybe Diogenes is just full of ignorant shit?

Birds of a feather, and a forgone conclusion for the most part, AFAIK.

@Miss_Purl_McKnittington

I suppose you could say that this bill is reducing state spending, but there wasn’t a peep out of him about reducing the power of unions during the election.

You are confused about this being two seperate issues. They are closely tied. The conclusion has been drawn that one significantly supports the other, and alot of people seem to agree on that - not just the Governor.

@Harborwolf

…they wanted to get some publicity for the bill.

What, no marketing money in the budget?

@Damuri_Ajashi

The quorum requirement.

See: Call of the house (compelled attendance). Those bastards are shirking their responsibility and should be subject to censure and any other punishment deemed appropritae by their peers.

@Page_Fault

..I always ask them if they even paid attention in 8th grade history.

Exactly - ancient history. Unions are an anachronism with little value in today’s economy. They have in fact demonstrated intense negative economic pressure over the past thirty odd years. It’s not about the workers any more. It’s about failing companies and governments.

You need to get that.

@pkbites

But taking money away from someone so it can benefit someone else (i.e. higher taxation) that you support. That is messed up thinking.

It makes sense if you don’t think about it.

@Frank

I’m getting really tired of people arguing that gutting the government is the solution to all of our problems.

I’d only argue that it is a big step in the right direction.

@Scarlett67

Today he fought his way in to work in a blizzard to wipe the asses of veterans with dementia…

Good for him. But your myopic, poor widdle sob story is alas, irrelevant to the much larger issue of Wisconsin’s solvency. Every body’s got a story. Sorry, but it ain’t payin’ the bills, honey. :rolleyes:

[elucidator]

Oooh, I just love it when you guys talk like gruff, stern, hard-headed realists! Is that what gets you guys laid? So desperate you are willing to boink a conservative woman? Channel Wilford Brimley.

[Ogre]

Aptly yclept, Nadir.

[asterion]

@elucidator

Oooh, I just love it when you guys talk like gruff, stern, hard-headed realists! Is that what gets you guys laid? So desperate you are willing to boink a conservative woman? Channel Wilford Brimley.

I want to talk to you about diabeetus.

[Nadir]

@elucidator

So desperate you are willing to boink a conservative woman?

Politics actually is a very large bone of contention in our household!

[AlienVessels]

@Nadir

Public worker unions all over the country have been getting a free ride. No, they are not all getting it, and it varies by specific location and union, etc. But there are alot of them out there. If this is the only way to to bring them around, then so be it. Private sector workers generally pay quite a bit more for health insurance and traditional pension plans have basically gone extinct. There is nothing just or right about the scam many unions have been running on the taxpayer dime. The first five hours over 40 is free at my company. Wisconsin public workers would die of a stroke if that were suggested.

Really, you have personal knowledge of the Wisconsin unions or workers? I worked for the State of Texas many years ago and I knew plenty of people that worked for “free” after their 40. Just as I saw the office become a ghost land at 5pm in many business settings over the last 18 years.

Public sector employees are required on average to have higher education than private. They are paid less for the same qualifications on average. That was the deal, you get less pay for more security and benefits.

Now the Republicans are reneging on the deal. “Yeah, I know this stuff was promised to you, but it turns out that it’s inconvenient for us to honor our commitments.”

The public union folks have already conceded on ALL the financial components asked for in the bill. But asswipe Walker wants to turn the clock back 50 years in one fell swoop by gutting collective bargaining and even the ability to sustain a union.

So much for jobs and balancing the budget. Walker deliberately created a deficit in order to have superficial grounds to move forward right-wing agenda.