Grammar Question

[Tensoc]

My sister asked me to look over a paper she was writing and I came across this sentence:

For example, a student might ask himself, “What kind of degree do I want to achieve,” or “How long do I want to be in school?”

I modified it to:
For example, a student might ask himself, “what kind of degree do I want to achieve,” or, “how long do I want to be in school?”

Is that correct? Am I missing something? I can’t find my Elements of style book at the moment so I can’t be sure…
Much appreciated. I’d like to notify her if I missed something =]

[Tensoc]

Cursed Double Posts…

If a mod wouldn’t mind removing one of them I’d appreciate it

[raygirvan]

Based on no particular authority, I’d go for:

For example, a student might ask himself, “What kind of degree do I want to achieve?” or “How long do I want to be in school?”.

[raygirvan]

Oh, I forgot: I’d probably also rephrase it to “… students might ask themselves…” since many readers don’t go for the old assumption that “himself” = “himself or herself”.

[ratatoskK]

I prefer your sister’s version. The two quoted phrases should definitely start with a capitalized word. I’m just not sure whether the first should end with a comma or a question mark. And there should definitely not be a comma after “or.”

[dantheman]

*Originally posted by raygirvan *
**Based on no particular authority, I’d go for:

For example, a student might ask himself, “What kind of degree do I want to achieve?” or “How long do I want to be in school?”. **

I think this one’s the best. The two questions should begin with capital letters and end with question marks. The conjunction “or” needs no puncutation surrounding it, because it is simply connecting two possibilities - not two complete thoughts.

Also, although for a time it was proper to change “himself” to “himself or herself” and so on, it’s no longer required. “Himself” is fine.

[Tensoc]

Alirighty… Thanks

[twickster]

dantheman’s version is good, except no period at the end, it should end question-mark-close-quotes.

[dantheman]

Oh, that’s right. I didn’t even pay attention to that. (I was quoting raygirvan.)

[raygirvan]

Also, although for a time it was proper to change “himself” to “himself or herself” and so on, it’s no longer required. “Himself” is fine.

Cite? Professional writing style guides - for instance, the APA or Industry Canada or the IEEE - still advise against constructions such as “himself” that might be considered sexist.

[dantheman]

Sure, here’s one. The McGraw-Hill College Handbook, 2nd Edition.

Page 277 (Section 15c):

In general avoid cumbersome constructions such as his or her, his/her, or s/he.

Some writers now alternate he and she … using one gender in one paragraph and the other gender the next time a singular pronoun is called for. This alternative can become distracting, too. Many speakers and some writers use a plural pronoun to refer to an impersonal singular antecedent: “The person who left their suitcase on the bus can call for it at the office.” However, such usage is regarded as nonstandard by most writers and editors.

Some writers use the neuter impersonal pronoun one to avoid the masculine pronoun: “The American dream has always been that if one is willing to work, one can succeed in life.”

Most professional writers and editors still use the masculine pronoun to refer to an impersonal, singular antecedent: “The American dream has always held that if anybody was willing to work, he could ahead in life.”

The textbook adds that in some cases using both genders is preferable - such as when the gender of the person is not known: “The student who spray-painted the insulting graffiti on the blackboard may have thought that he or she was being original, but it was a cowardly act.”

[j.c]

“The student who spray-painted the insulting graffiti on the blackboard may have thought this was original, but it was a cowardly act.”

Or perhaps “…an original statement…”

[dantheman]

Well, yeah. You can recast the sentence. The point was that the “he or she” construction is archaic and unnecessary.

[raygirvan]

Well, a search on “non-sexist writing” or similar suggests that McGraw-Hill’s is a minority view (I even doubt their authority for their claim that “most professional writers and editors still use the masculine pronoun to refer to an impersonal, singular antecedent”). They also look a little biased in presenting the possibilities: they show only the obtrusive ways around the problem. As with the example by j.c., it’s better to recast a sentence elegantly to make the gender irrelevant, rather than overtly engineered in a “look, I’m being gender-neutral” way.

[dantheman]

Quite frankly, “himself or herself” is quite a bit more obtrusive - not to mention awkward - than simply saying “himself.”

But hey, you listen to your experts, I’ll listen to mine.

[Shrinking_Violet]

*Originally posted by twickster *
**dantheman’s version is good, except no period at the end, it should end question-mark-close-quotes. **

Are you sure about that?

For example, a student might ask himself, “What kind of degree do I want to achieve?” or “How long do I want to be in school?”

… just doesn’t look right to me - the sentence as a whole is left incomplete. Surely the second question mark only refers to the sentence within quotes?

Julie

[dantheman]

*Originally posted by Shrinking Violet *
**Are you sure about that?

For example, a student might ask himself, “What kind of degree do I want to achieve?” or “How long do I want to be in school?”

… just doesn’t look right to me - the sentence as a whole is left incomplete. Surely the second question mark only refers to the sentence within quotes?

Julie **

It’s not really incomplete. Subject is “student,” verb is “might ask,” and object/predicate consists of the two possibilities.

I’ll have to look this up, but I think when a full-sentence quote appears at the end of a sentence, the punctuation of the quote is retained - unless the quoted sentence finished with a question mark or exclamation point.

[dantheman]

Harbrace College Handbook, Tenth Edition:

Place the question mark, the exclamation point, and the dash within the quotation marks when they apply only to the quoted matter. Place them outside when they do not.

Pilate asked, "What is truth?"

Notice that there’s no period following the quoted statement, even though the entire sentence isn’t a question.

[refusal]

Fowler in 1908 states the following principles, which he admits are non-standard:

No stop is ever required at the end of a quotation to separate the quotation, as such, from what follows; that is sufficiently done by the quotation mark.

A stop is required to separate the containing sentence, which may go on beyond the quotation’s end, but more commonly does not, from what follows.

An exclamation or question mark—which are not true stops, but tone symbols—may be an essential part of the quotation.

When a quotation is broken by such insertions as he said, any stop or tone symbol may be an essential part of the first fragment of quotation.

No stop is needed at either end of such insertions as he said to part them from the quotation, that being sufficiently done by the quotation marks.

This would give:

For example, a student might ask himself “What kind of degree do I want to achieve?” or “How long do I want to be in school?”

Fowler may be out of date, but I rather like the above: it’s simple, uncluttered and unambiguous.

Or for maximum security, try:

For example, students might ask themselves what kind of degree they want to achieve or how long they want to be in school.

http://www.bartleby.com/116/406.html

[refusal]

Although it has to be admitted that Fowler also likes:

Is the question ‘Where was he?’ or ‘What was he doing?’?

Which is interesting to say the least (though his examples don’t require a full stop after closing quotation marks, they require a question mark if one is intended).