…my thoughts are with you as well, sheek. Hang in there…
SpiderWoman, I’m sorry -
Yes. The ill gramma is the one married to the grampa I watch football with. She also taught me how to play cribbage and blackjack, two games that are a staple of Baptist minster’s kids everywhere 
My grandfather passed away at age 81. His wife, sister, son, and I were all at his side. We held his hands as he took his last breath. No, we weren’t happy that he had gone on to a better level. But, we were glad that he wasn’t lying in a bed, unaware of most activities, or even who his visitors were at all times.
Look around this board. Look at all the grumpiness & ill feelings these folks have when they have a cold, or unemployment, or romance troubles. Most older people have lived wonderful, full lives. Constant tiredness is very wearing for them, and they are only relieved when the brighter glory of the hereafter dawns upon them.
No, I don’t really believe in God or Heaven, but I held my grandparents’ hands as they took halting steps through their home. I tried to make things more comfortable for them, and I wasn’t too selfish to stand in their way when they went on to some other existence. I so miss them, but they never had to bear unwanted indignities.
My sympathy to you & your family. I’ll bet Grandma isn’t nearly as worried about things as the rest of you.
My thoughts and prayers (agnostic as they may be) are with you and your family.
Maybe this is a very unappropriate time to bring this up, and feel free to give me a virtual slap upside the head if I’m way out of line here.
But I would like to suggest that you and your family, after all this quiet down, sit down together and talk about these things. That way, if you’re ever put in this situation again, you will at least know what the person’s wishes are.
I feel terrible for you for having to go through this, and at the same time I’m thankful I had “the talk” with my family. I know their wishes and they know mine.
Meanwhile, I’ll be thinking about you.
{{{{{Chique}}}}}
We’ve never spoken before but my heart goes out to you. My grandmother, who helped raise me after my mother died (I was 5), died last month at 90. She’d been in declining health since a hip fracture two years ago, and it was (this sounds so cliche but it’s true) a blessing. I am so very grateful to have had her into my 30s (think of it! Think of how much richer we are that we can enjoy our grandparents for so long!)
Fortunately, she’d had a living will since for many years. The deaths of my grandfather and Gramma’s mother were both very difficult, and she wanted to avoid the pain they went through. My father and I, her only living relatives, were also in agreement that there was no way we’d let her go through anything like that.
At least in Maryland, the DNR was flexible, and could be changed if we wanted. I don’t think we ever did. We were pretty clear from the beginning - the only treatement we wanted for her was for comfort. That meant that in her final day, when fluid began accumulating in her lungs, we approved suction but not intubation. (I know that line itself must be terribly upsetting to you, Chique - but these are the sort of decisions that are unavoidable…)
(BTW, a friend of mine with a doctor-relative said that in New York, approving intubation can be very problematic, because once it starts the law makes it very difficult for physicians to turn it off. I haven’t checked this myself, and I don’t know the situation for other states, but you might just check if you’re considering that option.)
The hospital was wonderful - the transferred her to a private room and made sure she had plenty of morphine. Despite the hospital setting, she died pretty peacefully. Without the DNR I’m not sure that would’ve been possible.
I’m sorry this post is sounding so clinical; one of the hardest things we ever have to do is let go. It’s strength, friend, strength.
Bless, and with thoughts to you.
Christian
{chique}
Condolences to you.
I don’t want to sound cold or callous, but do what you guys think would be best for your grandma in the long term. Would she be happy (if/when she pulls through) having a zillion different long term conditions which require her to be on an assortment of drugs and treatments? On the bright-side…at 89, she’s lived a long and healthy life, and at the moment, is WAY over her average life expectancy…so every day, really is a bonus.
I cared for an 85 YO lady late last year who had a respiratory arrest outside her Dr’s clinic. I think she was one of DVous Means’ Patients actually. She came in, was not expected to live through the night, and the physician discussed a DNR order with the family, and it was decided that it would be best. Amazingly, we discharged this lady only 2 and a half weeks later, but she’s having to spend the rest of her life not too far away from an oxygen cylinder, due to her advanced COAD. She’s loving life because she’s been given a second chance, but personally, I’d find it annoying having to be attached to a cylinder all the time.
Just my thoughts. I truly hope that your family can come to an amicable agreement that you’re all happy with, and that you do what you can all agree is best in the long term for your grandma!
regards
I’m not one who’s prone to hugs, but if it’ll soothe you:
{{{{chique}}}}
I hope that helps!
You know, these boards are a great place. I feel, sometimes, like I’m going through this alone, and it’s hard to remember that other people have gone through this, too.
Thanks to all of you.
{{{{{{SDMB}}}}}}
xtra - no, that’s not upsetting. As I stated previously, the ventilator was supposed to have been a temporary, preventative measure - to take the stress off of her heart while she recovered. Unfortunately, it doesn’t look like she’s coming off of it, and that wasn’t part of the original plan.
The meeting that was supposed to happen Saturday night happened today. We are going to continue with the care she is currently receiving but are not going to give her any additional drugs if her heart does weird things again.
Today they suctioned 20 oz. of fluid out of her lungs and her pancreas (she’s a diabetic) is starting to do strange things. She’s essentially shutting down, and it is very hard to watch. I’ve been getting not much sleep at all - either not sleepy or sitting up all night keeping watch. Which is where I’m off to shortly.
Thanks again.
I’ve just had a very upsetting morning 
Gramma woke up around 4 a.m. so I went to talk to her. She indicated she wanted the vent tube out. I said “I know, gramma, but you stop breathing when they try to take it out, so it has to stay in a little while longer.”
She shrugged and nodded her head. Then she tugged at the tube a LOT harder.
sigh
If it’s taken out it’ll kill her, but really, does it matter if she dies with it in or out? But wouldn’t taking it out be murder? And she doesn’t WANT it in…
I wish they’d never put the damn thing in :mad:
Oh lordy, Chique, I am so sorry…
{{{{{{Chique}}}}}}
Now’s when you start to live minute by minute. It’s all you can do.
Let yourself feel everything. Be with your Gramma if you need to be with her, and take breaks when you need to take breaks.
Please keep us posted - but only when you can…
Christian
If your Gramma indicates that she does, indeed, want the tube out and knows the implications, will they take it out? I don’t envy you your position. I’m glad she has you there with her, but it is so difficult for you.
Is work being good about you spending time there, or do they harass you about it?
Call or e-mail if you need anything.
-----
—////\\
Feynn, your post almost made me cry.
I just recently lost my Grandma. She was a truly incredible woman. However, her last few years were wracked with the pain of osteoporosis, Alzheimers, and incapacitation. It was a blessing when she died in her sleep a month ago.
((((chique))))
I know how you feel. I hated looking a the board in the nurse’s station and seeing “DNR” written next to my dad’s name.
May I offer a piece of advice? When my gramma was in her last hours, there was this machine that was helping her breathe. There was a monitor hooked up that showed her blood-oxygen level. 80 or above was okay. Anything lower was really serious. We kept watching that machine. It was awful. We’d get all excited when the number when up, and we’d cry hysterically when it dropped. It was pure torture. My mom finally got the nurse to unhook the damn thing.
If there are any monitors that they can safely shut off, ask them to do so. You all feel bad enough without watching what really amounts to a countdown. It’s depressing and nerve wracking. If you really want it on, keep it on. I just found that it made all of us feel worse.
Again, I am so sorry for what you’re going through. I will continue to pray for you and your family. If you need anything, seriously, just email me. Even if it’s just to vent. I have been where you are, and I wish I could do something to spare people from this kind of pain.
chique,
Just wanted to let you know that I am praying for your gramma, and for you and your family. If there is anything I can do, PLEASE let me know. Otherwise, know that my prayers and healing positive thoughts are coming your way.
Scotti
When my dad got sick he asked that a DNR order was put into place. The night he coded, unfortunately the only doctor they could find was an opthamologist who resucitated him.
We made the decision as a family (through phone calls) to take him off the life support, but being the one who actually had to tell the doctor was heart wrenching for me. I knew it was best and I knew it was what he wanted, but to actually have to say those words was probably one of the most painful things I will ever have to do. The doctor’s told me he would pass away quickly. Four hours later, he took his last breath and went peacefully.
When my mom was dying of cancer, she also had a DNR order. Because we kept her at home to die, we also had a coroners certificate so that when she did pass away, the police didn’t have to get involved. Apparently thats practice here.
We had to call the ambulance once afternoon, several months before she passed away. She was in terrible shape and we thought that was “it”. The paramedic asked if there was an order and we said yes. He asked for it, and we couldn’t find the binder we kept everything in as it was chaos at that moment.
The paramedic said that he would resucitate her if she coded and there was such panic on her face. She looked at me with such fear. She had made her peace and the decision to stop treatment, and we all knew that when it was her time, she just wanted to end the pain. I told her that I would be in the ambulance with her and if she went I would not let him bring her back. Again, very painful but as anyone who has been involved with a loved one having cancer knows, the end is painful enough and they should be allowed the dignity of their final wishes.
Sorry for such a long post, this is a topic that has caused me great pain over the years.
{{{{{{chique}}}}}}
My guess is that absent a DNR order of a clear expression of refusal, they hadto put it in–otherwise it would be malpractice.
{{{{chique}}}}
–Tim
The docs are starting to wean her off of the vent.
They’ve brought the frequency down to 8 breaths a minute and she seems to be holding her own, and her heart is doing what it’s supposed to do. She’s not out of the woods yet, not by a long shot, but…
Well, we’ll see, yes?