In another thread, there was a discussion about the use of quotation marks.
I’m not going to review or renew that discussion.
There is a difference in the rules as written for the SDMB and the rules as written in grammar and punctuation reference books and style manuals.
From Harbrace College Handbook, Eleventh Edition, p. 158:
There are other times when quotation marks are used around a single word or phrase. It often suggests that that word is not exactly what is usually meant:
Examples: (1) The mayor was seen leaving the hotel with his “wife.”
That is quite different in connotation from: The mayor was seen leaving the hotel with his wife.
[2] On inservice days, the teachers were at the school “working.”
On inservice days, the teachers were at the school working.
(3) You said that you were going home for Spring Break.
You said, “I’m going home for Spring Break.”
All six of those sentences are correct, but the meaning is changed slightly.
Incorrect usage: Jefferson said that “he was not in love with Sally.”
Correct usage: Jefferson said that he was not in love with Sally.
Correct usage: Jefferson said, “I am not in love with Sally.”
Incorrect usage: Jefferson said, “I am…in love with Sally.”
It is okay to use ellipsis points when quoting directly as long as you don’t change the meaning.
I’m not arguing for one side or the other in the other thread. I’m pointing out the standard usage for quotation marks is different from the SDMB policy. One can follow both the policy and the grammar rules at the same time.
I don’t mind if this thread is closed now or left open for the discussion of grammar.
Foxtrot Yankee India, there are dozens of style guides out there. I have three of them on my shelf now (Australian Government, News Ltd and Associated Press). I’ve never heard of the one you’re quoting here.
Style manuals vary depending on who you are working for.
Rules of grammar are generally agreed upon by academics in one’s own country. And the rules do change from country to country just as vocabulary and spelling do. Rules change within the same country too, but usually after a long time.
My point was that both of the people in the main disagreement in another thread are right. Further, if there was any confusion of what is standard outside the SDMB in the United States, this should help to clarify.
Harcourt and Brace (also known informally as Harbrace) has been a standard reference guide for grammar and punctuation in many of the most demanding colleges and universities in the States for years. English teachers also continue to use it to double check questions. I don’t know how many editions are out now, but they do come out with new editions every few years. My first copy of this handbook was the 4th Edition which came out in 1956.
No they aren’t. The other thread was specifically about SDMB rules, it had nothing to do with general grammar/style. PRR was trying to play gotcha with the SDMB rules and Marley but he didn’t figure on having the rules completely wrong.
It’s been my understanding that the Associated Press or Chicago Manual of Style guides were considered the “standard reference” books on the subject in that part of the world? Not disagreeing with you, but just saying I’m not familiar with the book you mention and it doesn’t appear to be on the Wikipedia page for “Style guide” either.
Also, as you observe, there are posters from all over the world here (I’m in Australia, for example), so what a US style guide says is “correct” may not agree with what is “correct” for someone from elsewhere.
Just as importantly, though - and I say this as someone whose job includes sub-editing things - I would suggest most people aren’t that interested in rigourously following a particular style guide for what is essentially an informal chat with like-minded folks on a messageboard. We’re not arguing in Parliament over the phrasing elements of an OpEd in The Times, after all.
This +1, not to mention that the SDMB rules about quoting other people have nothing to do with “grammatical rules for quotation marks” and everything to do with “not being a jerk.”
I don’t consider Harbrace a “style guide.” It is a handbook on grammar, spelling, and punctuation. If you work in the publishing industry, you are expected to follow the guide of your employer even if it is not what you know is the academic standard in your country at present.
That’s why I mentioned the differences. I would not expect someone from England, for example, to always put commas and periods inside quotation marks. In the United States, you are expected to put them inside the quotation marks every time. Other rules apply to question marks and exclamation points.
When I worked for the United Methodist Publishing House as an editorial assistant, the books that I worked on were shipped worldwide. It generally followed the rules I had learned in college.
I remain open to the natural change in grammar rules, punctuation, and spelling. Only in recent years has the spelling of “judgment” become acceptable as “judgement.” The latter is the traditional British spelling. Norman Mailer broke one of the biggies. In the first line of one of his later books, he used a split infinitive. Academia shrugged and the rules are more relaxed. (I think Star Trek helped a lot in that direction too.)
But after twenty years as a teacher of English, I tend to anchor the rules as they are at present. Only after a student is well-versed in the rules should she or he have the fun of descriptive English. Just my opinion.
I checked on Amazon.com and Harbrace has eighteen editions that have been released over a period of 72 years. I would doubt that it is required in every college and university, but the university that I graduated from is often listed in the top ten schools in the United States. Five errors in a paper for an English class meant an automatic F for that paper. The college that I attended at that university usually ranks first or second in the field of education, especially for graduate school.
Since the only Harbrace editions I’ve seen have followed the academic rules as they are in the United States, I’m not surprised that there is not an Austrailian version. And the SDMB has its base in the United States, but has a right to have its own rules. It wouldn’t surprise me if it followed the style manual of the Chicago newspaper that you mentioned.
I shouldn’t have tried to answer when you asked about my point. I get off Scot-free on the “Mundane and Pointless” forum.
Have you noticed any differences in our practices here and your own?
Just a side note: I came close to moving to Austrailia at one point in the Sixties. I had spent a lot of time with a young man who was doing post-doctorate work at the university I attended. I found out very quickly that our vocabularies didn’t always denote the same thing. However, I thought it was clever that he washed his hands in a bison.
None of your comments have been in the least offensive to me. And I don’t consider “American English” to be the standard for the world. In fact, there is no “standard English” – only U.S. standard expectations generally shared with the two professions I’ve mentioned.
Finally, my usage is pretty good and most of the time my punctuation is okay. But my spelling is atrocious.
It can’t be that traditional. Shakespeare used judgment 123 times and judgement only 8. The supreme court of the UK also appears to use judgment on their website.
I know budding writers are prone to adjectival and adverbial overuse but this seems extreme.
According to this material, Harbrace is THE bestselling textbook of all time.
It doesn’t have its own page on Wikipedia, but it is mentioned in other Wiki articles numerous times either as Harbrace or Harcourt and Brace, which is the name of the publisher of the grammar handbook and many other books
Shakespeare’s spelling was all over the place – I don’t think he spelled his own name the same way twice. The spelling in his plays was regularised by the printers, and subsequent editions have updated it to meet contemporary standards.
Judgement is certainly the usual spelling in the UK, but the legal profession uses judgment specifically for the legal pronouncement of a judge – so it’s no surprise to find it on the website of the supreme court. If you were to look in legal publications, you’d be able to find sentences like “In my judgement, this judgment is faulty”.
I have worked in the publishing industry. “Harbrace,” as you call it, means nothing to me. No employer of mine has demanded that I use it, and none of my colleagues in technical writing and editing has ever mentioned it.
To me, in all the writing and editing jobs I’ve had, the Chicago Manual is the Bible. I’m also familiar with MLA, and others. And of course, all bets are off when it comes to Canadian usage and spelling. No, we won’t use “tyre” and “kerb,” but we will use “centre” and “harbour.”
I once worked for a Canadian company that followed the Canadian Press style guide. As such, it insisted on Canadian spelling for its worldwide publications. No complaints from the UK, from Australia, from India–but didn’t the US customers complain!
Let’s face it: if we can understand the discourse on the SDMB, we all understand English. Regardless of the placement of quotation marks, regardless of the spelling, we all get the message.
I have to say, not only do I work in the media, I have a Master’s Degree and I’ve never heard of this “Harbrace” work you reference.
It strikes me as… implausible that it would be the last word in grammar and formatting, yet not even rate a stub on Wikipedia. Windmills do not work that way, IME.
That’s not my fault. I gave a link. Please point out where I said that I expected people in countries outside the United States to be familiar with it? Your ignorance of the bestselling textbook of all times within the United States is no more surprising than my ignorance of the textbook you used in college.
I’m not surprised.
That fits exactly with what you quoted from me. Notice especially these words in what you quoted:
“If you work in the publishing industry, you are expected to follow the guide of your employer…” What part of that did you not understand as being in agreement with you?
I do think that people can easily be mislead when the words inside quotation marks are not what was actually said. But this SDMB rule, as it stands, could lead to some interesting opportunities in the future.
Thanks to those of you who explained about the British usage of “judgement” and “judgment.”
I failed to mention that the MLA is a style guide. Harbrace includes a limited section on research and composition (and even quotes the MLA, but it is primarily a grammar textbook. There is a difference.
Excuse the repetition, but this second post has more specifics.
I think you’re missing my point, which is partly “if this book is so definitive, why doesn’t it rate a Wikipedia page?”
Despite being in Australia, I’m still aware of the existence of the Chicago Manual of Style and the Associated Press guide. I’m also aware of Strunk & White’s The Elements of Style as well as Fowler’s Modern English Usage and The Oxford Style Manual).
Given that the SDMB is chock-full of doctors, people with alphabet soup after their name, and of course Grammar Nazis, I would have expected someone to come in and say “Ah, Harcourt & Brace, I remember that well!” or something like that. Hasn’t happened yet.
And FWIW, there was no official grammar textbook ever mentioned when I studied at university. Each school had their own reference formatting preferences (some APA, some Harvard) and for my journalism degree we used the News Ltd style guide when writing news articles, but otherwise, I don’t recall anyone getting too worked up over whether the comma was inside or outside a quotation mark (for example).