'Gray' Rape

I’m having a hard time understanding how a situation like this could hold up in court, unless the woman was outright lying. In these circumstances wouldn’t a lawyer advise against the woman pressing charges?

I don’t doubt that it has happened, given the reality of human nature, and it’s not fair. God no, it’s not fair. But it’s not fair that women get raped and sexually abused all of the time and not taken seriously by friends/family or the legal system. Which is inherently more unfair? In both cases, innocent people are suffering.

Men falsely accused of rape? = Happens all the time

Women falsely accused of lying about rape? = Happens all the time

So our legal system is fundamentally incapable of providing justice for everyone everywhere at all times. Why is this a surprise to anyone?

I don’t mean to belittle a traumatic experience such as rape or whatever you want to call it, but it seems to be the general thought in society as well as this thread that rape=fucked up forever. Got psychological problems? That’s because of the rape 20 years ago. Nothing can erase it and the pain is perpetual. Your computer breaks down? Rape.

Does anyone want to volunteer a rapish personal experience that did not lead to a life of misery? Or if you are miserable and fucked up now, it is NOT because of a long-ago rape?

Actually, it holds up pretty well. A woman just has to say she was too drunk to consent (so even if she said “i want to” it doesnt count) and its rape. Just search “drunk rape” on google and there are bazillions of hits for news stories and such about it. Mostly on college campuses…where i happen to be.

This is the reasoning behind why so many women categorize their rapes as ‘a miscommunication’ or, now, ‘gray rape.’ They weren’t traumatized physically, they were angry at or embarrassed for the guy who did it but didn’t call the cops or want him dead, and they didn’t want to be in the same category as ‘rape victims’ (or ‘survivors’) in our society. They read Lucky and couldn’t relate. They don’t feel broken or dirty, and they don’t need people telling them they’ll never heal (just as some molestation victims are fine, many women who get abortions are fine, and some people resent the term ‘recovering’ alcoholic rather than ‘former’ alcoholic). There are so many issues at play (obviously), especially this idea that women’s bodies are always, to some degree, public property. Whether they’re being groped in public, violated in private, or being told how they need to react to a crime.

One might ask what responsibility these women have to other possible victims (I wonder how they’d feel if, despite their ability to shrug an incident off, their little sister went to a party with the guy), and whether part of the reason for this view of rape victims as ever-tarnished is a self-fulfilling prophecy (the only women coming forward are the ones who can’t pretend they’re not traumatized).

ETA: If you’ve never read Lucky by Alice Sebold, read it. It will make you cry and scream.

Well, I’ve never been raped (knock on wood and all that), but I was sexually assaulted (in public) earlier this year, by some random guy…it was scary, but I did my civic duty and reported it, and all that. After it happened, I was wondering if I was going to experience PTSD symptoms (remembering my abnormal psych class) but nothing happened, and I’m basically the same person. I always thought that if something like that happened, it would totally change me and make me jaded or more in tune with the world or something but I’m basically still me.

I think you are absolutely right. A lot of people have expressed similar thoughts in this thread. Somehow we went from a ‘‘don’t blame the victim’’ well-meaning mentality to this other extreme, which is, ‘‘If you don’t feel like a victim, something’s wrong with you.’’ I don’t even like the word ‘‘survivor’’ any more because of the way it totally annihilated all other aspects of my identity, and the way it seemed to be wrong for me to want to forget and move on. It took me a long time hashing and rehashing the past before my REAL problem became clear.

Me: I’ve been sitting here talking about this for 5.5 years now. I want to do Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy. I want to focus on my present life. I want to learn how to function in every day society.

Therapist: I don’t know if CBT would be right for you, because we don’t normally do it with victims of sexual abuse or complex-PTSD and other situations that are extremely complicated where you have a lot of feelings to work out… It is better for people who have just one basic issue to work on.

Me: Fine. Here’s a basic issue I want to work on: I’m not going to class because I’m too depressed. I want to graduate.

Therapist: It’s natural to feel overwhelmed when you’ve been through so much…

Me: Maybe. But it’s NOT natural to live your entire life on the couch because you can’t stop feeling sorry for yourself! Let me out of here!

And after about four months of CBT, I was functioning well enough to stop therapy.

I truly believe this attitude toward people who have been raped or sexually abused can cause a lot of harm.

I’m going to quote something I posted here right around the time I joined the board. It’s long, but for people who feel this way, it can be really validating.

Which is why guys have to pay attention and not handwave off things like “she’s really drunk” or “she wouldn’t normally give me the time of day” as not their problem.

And both men and women really have to stop using alcohol as a tool for their sexuality.

well I started this to keep the convo/debate going but without mangling this thread with more off-topic debate.

Cite? And dont give me some contractual capacity cite. I am talking about a criminal statute that says it is illegal to have sex with a person drunk at their own volition. Am I raping my wife if we have drunk sex? If you’re correct about the law I am. A drunk person can’t give consent. if she’s drunk, and I’m having sex with her, by your understanding of the law, I’m raping her. I think you’re probably wrong.

you can answer in the other thread if you like.

Done.

He’s asking for sex.

If I want to get laid, they’ll buzz off and not act like cockblockers.

Since the point of going home with them is to fuck them, if I don’t want to fuck, I don’t go.

In my experience, guys who want to have conversation suggest going somewhere other than to their place.

‘Hey you want to go over to Denny’s?’ at 3 am means burnt coffee, maybe pie, and possibly conversation.

‘Hye you want to go back to my place’ at 3 am means naked twister.

Yeah, well, I should shut up anyways. I don’t have any really reputable ‘‘experience’’ to speak of. My idea of a rollicking good time is snuggling on the couch watching Star Trek on DVD.

catsix, even though I’m generally in agreement with your attitude that if I don’t want to have sex with a guy I don’t go to his place and make out with him, I have to ask, are you actually arguing that going to a man’s home means that I’ve agreed to have sex with him? Because… no.

I think age might be a consideration here. I’m 36. I’m pretty much either going to have sex with you or I’m not. There’s not a lot of halfway at my age. But it was a whole different story when I was 20.

It depends on where and when the question is asked. At a party or a bar where alcohol is being consumed, it is night time, and this is someone I just met? I would assume ‘Wanna go back to my place?’ means ‘Wanna fuck?’ and answering ‘Yes’ to the first will be taken as a ‘Yes’ to the second.

I’m 29. For at least the last 11 years, the question of going to someone’s place either at a party or at a bar meant sex. I’ve used it myself on several occasions. The loosest possible example was at a party during college where after much drunken flirting the question was ‘Wanna give me a tour of your house?’

The guy obviously understood perfectly, because he barely nodded at the rooms in the house and led me directly to his bedroom. These subtleties seem to be common enough that I’ve never had to explain one, nor been surprised when some guy I went home with was interested in more than watching cartoons.

Well, hey, since I did actual research to answer that question in t’other thread, I might as well post the relevant portion of it here.

In my state, at least, there’s very specifically no such thing as an “implicit yes.” The absence of “no” is not “yes”. And yes, a woman can change her mind at any point, including after penetration. “According to Illinois state law, there is no implied consent. The absence of an explicit “Yes” is a “No,” according to state law. The Illinois Criminal Sexual Assault Act, 720 ILCS 5/12-17, defines consent as “freely given agreement to the act of sexual penetration or sexual conduct in question. Lack of verbal or physical resistance or submission by the victim resulting from the use of force or threat of force by the accused shall not constitute consent. The manner of dress of the victim at the time of the offense shall not constitute consent.”” (from here).

So legally and morally, when I agree to go upstairs with you, I’m consenting to go upstairs with you. I’m not consenting to “go upstairs with you” nudge nudge wink wink nowotImean?
And, from Anecdoteland, I’ve gone to plenty of guy’s places at their invitation, with or without alcohol, without the intention nor the action of having sex. Maybe you need to find cooler guys to hang out with.

Well, as catsix pointed out, bars are a different story. Getting drunk at a bar or nightclub and going home with someone generally equals sex. Going on a date with someone and then going home could just mean hanging out, making out, oral sex, etc. Bars are generally a different milieu.

Wonderful, but I’m not talking about statutes. I’m talking about differences between what men and women see as the meaning of words in conversation, and the fact that I still can’t believe there are actually women who are shocked to find out a guy who asked to take them home after flirting and drinking all night in a bar might actually want to have sex.

Actually, I think the kind of guys who don’t want sex in that situation are dreadfully boring and anything but cool. I’d just be aggravated that some dude wasted my time.

I consider the whole ‘Want to go home with me?’ question between people who just met and are getting drunk and flirty at a bar or party (as in they met there, not that they are on a date) is rather like the subtle toe-tapping in the restroom. It may not sound like it to the unfamiliar and the naive, but it’s an invitation for a hook-up.

I’m in the college scene as of now, and if you take “want to go home with me”/“back to my dorm” and just going back…well your out of luck. It may not be sex your consenting to, but you aren’t keeping all your clothes on either.

Uh, “out of luck”? As in “it doesn’t matter what I think I’ve agreed to I don’t get to keep my clothes on”?

If so, you do realize that you are claiming that you will commit a crime, don’t you?

“out of luck” as in 99.9% of the time that you heard that and thought “well, i really wanted to see the houses decor and take a tour and talk” you would be wrong with his intentions… in no way implying your going to get raped… just that there was some serious mis-communication.