'Gray' Rape

In My Humble Opinion
81

We-ell, maybe not while drunk…I’ve definitely had violation/rape fantasies. The best idea to act on it is most likely to script out what would happen, use safe words, that sort of thing, to avoid a potentially dangerous situation. Otherwise, you might be walking into an extremely nasty set of circumstances.

I’m having trouble seeing the difference between a woman who wakes up the next morning and realizes she didn’t want to have sex and a man who wakes up next to a woman who he finds “coyote ugly” and realizing he would never have had sex with someone like that if he’d been sober. I guess I see it less as rape/coercion and more as someone making a stupid choice that they need to account for. Alcohol doesn’t make you do anything you wouldn’t normally do, after all–it lowers your inhibitions so that you can excuse doing something you may want to do but consider wrong/socially unacceptable/etc.

82

While I agree with you to a large extent, I do wonder why anyone would want to have sex with someone who will wake up tomorrow and think you’re a loser/hag/creep/disgusting freak.

If the only reason someone would have sex with me is if they were either desperate or drunk, jesus, I’ve got better things to do with my time.

83

I’ve been following this thread with great interest, but I just wanted to respond to this one part.

I think there’s a class of immature girls who believe that sexual attraction means taking any opportunity to have sex whenever possible. Of course, if you are in a mutually respectful relationship there would never be a situation where this would occur. Essentially, you were dating an oddball who had a very skewed view of what sexual attraction is and what it means to be in a real relationship. I know I don’t want to be taken advantage of while I’m drunk, unless I’m the initiator :wink:

(Kidding. I live with my boyfriend, so it’s not anything akin to drunken date-rape)

84

I don’t think it’s rare for women to drink so they can ‘blame’ having sex on alcohol rather than their own whore-ish urges (also partly explains rape fantasies, which let women feel good without being ‘bad’).

On that note, the whole notion of ‘gray rape’ in the Cosmo article is tied to Unhooked author Laura Sessions Stepp, who believes promiscuous college girls are ruining their chances at love and marriage (not to mention causing impotence in college boys).

85

And what should be the standard for women? If there was a rape starting to happen here, she was doing it to him. When did he say he wanted it? Where’s his consent?

Try reversing the genders in that story. A woman has been crushing on a married friend for a while. He comes to see her, slightly tipsy, and gets more drunk. Then he starts groping her and trying to have sex. Now who’s responsible?

86

Here’s the thing. Until relatively recently, rape wasn’t about violating a woman at all. It was about violating a man; namely, the man who that pussy belonged to. That’s why in the bible, and in some less civilized countries, a rapist can atone for his crime by marrying the woman he raped. Because she isn’t even the issue here, the issue is her daddy, who was hoping to sell of his pristine virginal daughter to the highest bidder, but now someone went and messed that up. She’s not in mint condition anymore! But, you break it, you buy it; and if he will just compensate dear old Dad for his loss, well, everything is set right again. It’s why spousal rape is only a recently recognized crime. Because after the wedding, why, you own that pussy! And you can’t steal what you already own, can you? It’s why the rape of a prostitute is still considered a joke by far too many people; at best it’s theft of services, har har har! Just give the girl a $20, and we’ll be alright! It’s why bringing up a woman’s past sexual history used to be okay, and seem relevant. Because, the kind of women who said yes before, why, she must like sex. And that makes her a dirty whore. And, as we all know, you can’t rape a whore.

It’s a mentality that we are only recently starting to get past. The old way was stupid, but it made a certain amount of sense. Men wanted to have sex, women didn’t, and you had to talk them into it (and if you did, they were slutty, so dump 'em. Men want to date a slut, but marry a virgin, so watch it ladies!). But here we have all these enlightened women, who want sex. And, I think a lot of guys are confused. They are using the old rules on these new women. here’s this girl, she’s drunk and alone with me. She must want it, because, according to the old way, only a slut would even be in this position. So, I’ll fuck her. And I’m saying, no. There are new rules that go along with these “new women”. And rule no. 1 is, you have no right to the pussy. None. It’s hers, totally, completely, and without question, and you have no business using it without her explicit consent.

But, what if she’s drunk? Yes, even then, it’s still her pussy. But, what if he’s drunk too? Yes, even then, it’s still her pussy. But, what if he’s drunk and horny? Yes, even then, it’s still her pussy. But, what if he’s drunk and horny, and she’s passed out, but we were making out before she passed out, and I think, if she hadn’t passed out she would have wanted it; I mean she’s here, it’s implied, can’t I go ahead? No, it’s still her pussy. But, what if I have blue balls, and c’mon, she won’t even know, really, she won’t really remember in the morning, and I’m drunk, you can’t hold me responsible? Yes, I can asshole. It’s still her pussy, her body, and you have NO RIGHT to it. But, if I go ahead, I’m not really a rapist, right? I mean, rapists are scary dudes who break in your house, I’m a nice guy, I’m just lonely, and, horny, and I think she might have wanted it. No, you are a rapist. It is rape. If you want to have sex, get consent, and get it from someone who is capable of giving it. If you don’t, you are an asshole at best, and very likely a rapist.

Here’s another way of seeing it. If you are a guy, put yourself in her position. If you got drunk somewhere, in a sketchy situation, maybe with a guy you didn’t know so good, and you woke up with your asshole hurting, would you consider it rape? Would you say it was “gray rape”? It’s no different for her. Don’t do it.

87

I already said this wasn’t a story about a possible rape, but about a different kind of mentality about sex. I’m sorry if you missed those posts.

88

But this isn’t the gray situation. The gray situation is when both partners are conscious but one or both is very drunk, yet consents–is one (or are both) unable to consent? Is it rape? Is it rape if one of them is really drunk but probably shouldn’t have sex (in a relationship, vulnerable for whatever reason)? Obviously having sex with a drunk passed out person is wrong, but the grey area is when someone is clearly incapacitated.

89

I’m sorry you missed my question, so I’ll ask it again. What is the standard of behavior for women in this “different kind of mentality about sex” that you’re espousing?

90

Most of the ‘gray’ cases, including the OP, have involved women who were passed out (and I’m not sure it’s '‘obvious’ that screwing or assaulting them is wrong if it’s so common) or said ‘No,’ drunk or not. But feel free to start a thread on how sober a guy has to be to get an erection, whether other crimes are forgivable while drunk, etc.

I find it sort of troubling that this is a story about women justifying their rapes/assault because they don’t feel like victims, don’t want to make waves or don’t want to ruin someone else’s life (the rapist’s, that is, not his next few possible victims) – women who specifically don’t consider their non-consensual experiences rape, at least not at first, and don’t press charges – and so many people are concerned about women being *overly * sensitive and making false accusations.

91

I’d be interested if someone could describe a scenario that they think is a possible “grey rape” and allow us it to weigh in on it. I’m kind of having a hard time imagining how different a “grey rape” would be to a “not-so-grey rape”.

The situation described in the OP, if accurate, seems pretty cut and dry to me. Half unconscious woman saying no = no consent, to me.

92

It’s exactly the same as it is for men; respect yourself, repect your partner, do not have sex with someone who is unwilling, or who hasn’t given consent, or who is unable to give consent. And if someone says “no” respect them, and leave it at that. No coercion.

Now, you tell me, what is wrong with this standard of behavior?

This IS the gray situation. This is the situation we are talking about. Please, re-read the story from the OP, and some of the other stories that have been posted.

But, to answer your question, I think if a man and a woman are very drunk, the onus is on the man to refrain from penetrating the woman unless consent is explicit. And I think, even if consent IS very explicit, especially if they have no history together (like, if they just met and are hooking up) a man has very good reasons to refrain anyway, and should consider doing just that. But if he goes ahead, after EXPLICIT consent, no, I do not consider it rape.

I agree with this. It’s kind of depressing.

93

But…We men are told that if we were to have drunken sex with our wives, it would be rape. I understand why, but at the same time women speak so casually about what THEY would do to a drunk hottie (when I’m hanging out with female friends in a bar; or as you just did, for example) that it’s a tad confusing to guys. I digress.

I notice that the terms “Yes” and “No” are being used quite a bit. I personally have had two women say “No”- Not that abruptly, but the basic gist being, “I’m not in the mood”. I have never, under any circumstances, had someone say, “Yes”, or anything to that effect BEFORE sexual contact. Usually the whole “kissing, oral sex, orgasm” thing will garner a “F*** me, please!”, but never have I heard anything such beforehand. I’m not sure I want to live in a world where we have to sign contracts before doing the deed! :slight_smile:

The only other thing I have to add, is that out of the 20 or so women whom I have dated (enough that I would have had this conversation) beyond a one-nighter, only two- Yes, two- have NOT been raped. It would seem to me that for this to be statistically possible, every guy would have to (or attempt to), “rape” at least one woman in his life.

This is not a skewed sample either- I have been with women from all over the country at this point, and two from outside the US. I just find that fantastically hard to believe. One of them was a violent sexual assault. The rest were what the OP is referring to (I believe)as ‘gray rape’. These “gray rapes” seem to me to be more miscommunication than anything else.

Example: After being told about the “rape”, I inquire as to what happened. It would seem that she was at a club, and had a few drinks. She sees this guy, goes over to him and starts dancing. [Guy is thinking, “Nice!, a cute girl wants to dance with me! She must think I’m hot.”] After some grinding [Guy is thinking, “ooo She wants to nail me!”] he invites her back to his place. She accepts. [Guy is thinking, “Score!- Just a few more smooth moves, and this kitty is in the bag!”] They go to his place, have a smoke, and begin making out. He goes down on her, and she has a good time. [Guy is thinking, “Ain’t no way I’m not getting some now!”] When it comes time to reciprocate, she decides in her head that she doesn’t want to screw the guy (mind you, the entire time she had wanted to get laid) for whatever reason- she didn’t tell me why. So she gives him a little hand action, at which point he grabs a condom, flip her on her stomach, and goes to town. [Guy is thinking, “Ooooooh, say can you SEEEEE, by the dawn’s early…”] She isn’t liking this, and realizes to her absolute horror, that she is being date-raped! Rather than simply saying…“Er, dude…listen…er…You aren’t really doing anything for me here, I think I’m ready to head out”, she says nothing because she “Just wanted it to end”. After he is done, she gets up, and leaves. [Guy is thinking, “Wow! Greatest date EVER! She came onto me, had sex with me, then got the hell out in time for me to catch the rest of the game! WOOO!”]

She told me the only reason she didn’t press charges against “The Asshole”, was because she didn’t want her parents to know that she was drinking and smoking.
Since I wasn’t there, I can only assume his side of the story. However, with my lifelong experience as a man, I’m going to wager that I was pretty close. In my mind, the guy probably didn’t know anything was wrong, and would have been pretty stunned to find out about what an “Asshole” he was when he was in handcuffs the next day.

I feel this is one of those subjects, like racism, that will forever be subjective.

94

What is so wrong (or unsexy, even) about saying, “You are so hot! I want to fuck you! Do you wanna fuck me baby?” before you stick your dick into a girl? Really, I want to know. I’m not talking about contracts or any of that BS, I’m just saying a simple, “Do ya wanna?”

You don’t have to say it every time with your wife who you’ve had sex with three times a week for ten years, but the woman you just met, who’s drunk… why not? In the story from Spit, can’t we all agree that something just that simple would have saved someone a lot of heartache? And if she’s really drunk, why not say “Hey you’re pretty drunk. Are you sure you want to do this?” before continuing?

No one is going to convince me that something so simple is going to result in the end of the species due to lack of sex. It may leave a few frat boys beating off at the end of the night, but I consider that a far lesser tragedy than a woman who’s been violated.

95

Here is the rub: If a girl has had two (2) drinks, and were to sign a contract, it would not be enforcable, due to her “intoxication”. If I couldn’t get a legal document to stand up in my defense, I doubt a verbal agreement would help me any at all.

(I’m speaking in the instance where she would agree, then mid-sex decide that she didn’t want to)

96

After having read the Cosmo article, I think I have the gist of what a “gray rape” is supposed to be in this context, so here’s a potential scenario along those lines:

My last year of college, I was that girl. Except I ended up being a “bitch” and shoving him out my door after he ignored my third statement that he had to leave. It left me really confused since I’d enjoyed his company and found him attractive, but hadn’t wanted to have sex with him. He hadn’t been mean, but he kept ignoring my protests. I talked to another male friend about it the next day and he somehow interpreted those events as the other guy being gentlemanly, as he was so “patient” with me.

97

No, here’s the rub. When you start off with legal defenses, and contracts, and a basic attitude that says, “How can I manage to get laid and not get in trouble,” then you need to re-think your entire position on dating, and sex, in my opinion. You are trying to see what you can get, and how far, and not respecting the basic humanity of the girl you want to have sex with.

If she agrees, and mid way changes her mind, then stop. There you go. If this is all meant hypothetically, then quit trying to turn sex into a legal battle. And if it isn’t hypothetical, and you’re worried you might end up in court because of a girl you slept with, STOP SLEEPING WITH GIRLS YOU AREN’T SURE ARE CAPABLE OF CONSENT. Because if you do, you are an asshole, even if you aren’t a rapist.

98

In that case, I fail to see how drinking would affect the situation, besides decreasing her reaction time. The situation would be the same as if both parties were sober - that is, she had a responsibility to make herself clear, “making a big deal out of it”, if you like, and ensuring that he got the message. Otherwise, imagine being a guy who, every time a girl who initially says no later agrees to have sex, must fear being charged with rape.

99

How about stopping when she says no, and not trying to coerce a girl who clearly isn’t interested into sleeping with you?

Or, in other words, if she said no, and you didn’t stop, and went ahead, even if she didn’t scream at you, you** ARE** a rapist.

100

Obviously we are speaking in hypotheticals- I don’t walk around with a stack of legal papers. It would definitely kill my mood, and I’m sure hers as well. :smiley:

The problem is, with any type of instant hook-up, you would run this risk of miscommunication. I suppose we could all stop doing that, but what fun would it be?