'Gray' Rape

In My Humble Opinion
101

[QUOTE=miss elizabeth]
It’s exactly the same as it is for men; respect yourself, repect your partner, do not have sex with someone who is unwilling, or who hasn’t given consent, or who is unable to give consent. And if someone says “no” respect them, and leave it at that. No coercion.

Now, you tell me, what is wrong with this standard of behavior?
[/QUOTE]
Respectful, no pressure, putting other people’s desires ahead of your own. There’s nothing really wrong with it; but I’ve lived most of my life that way and I can’t say it’s made me very happy, either.

Relationships of any kind are a messy, confusing, chaotic business. There will always be people who push the envelope in one way or another. Some take it too far and should get what they deserve. But the opposite extreme isn’t the answer, either.

102

[QUOTE=miss elizabeth]
It’s exactly the same as it is for men; respect yourself, repect your partner, do not have sex with someone who is unwilling, or who hasn’t given consent, or who is unable to give consent. And if someone says “no” respect them, and leave it at that. No coercion.

Now, you tell me, what is wrong with this standard of behavior?
[/quote]

The, err, grey portion. The vagueries of being able to decide if someone is or is not able to give consent is not concrete in many cases.

What the f…errr, this isn’t the pit…heck? Why is there a double standard here? These theoretically drunk folk are both theoretically both adults and should be held to the same freaking standard. This starts to tip toward the absurd, where men are having to guard the cock and the women are trying to get past the goalie.

103

[QUOTE=kidchameleon]
What the f…errr, this isn’t the pit…heck? Why is there a double standard here? These theoretically drunk folk are both theoretically both adults and should be held to the same freaking standard. This starts to tip toward the absurd, where men are having to guard the cock and the women are trying to get past the goalie.
[/QUOTE]

I agree. Having sex with a passed out, unconscious person is clearly wrong in my book. Having sex with someone who’s saying “No” or “Stop” (or whatever your safe word of choice is) is clearly wrong.

But if you’re drunk but capable of groping/feeling up/making out with your partner of choice, I don’t think you get to play the “I was too drunk to know any better” card. If they’re both drunk and she’s considerably drunker than him (passed out/stumbling around/has no idea what’s going on), that’s wrong. It’s also wrong if he’s that much drunker than her. But if they’ve both had a few, they both need to be able to communicate what they want to happen. If you can’t do that, then you need to stop drinking to that point and you also need to start learning how to communciate your boundaries in a safe and effective manner.

104

[QUOTE=athelas]
Otherwise, imagine being a guy who, every time a girl who initially says no later agrees to have sex, must fear being charged with rape.
[/QUOTE]

How about this: If a girl initially says no, never ask her again. Ever.

Then none of the rest of us have to listen to “nice guys” whining about how girls play games and play hard to get, because those girls would have to change their ways.

Imagine.

105

[QUOTE=kidchameleon]
The, err, grey portion. The vagueries of being able to decide if someone is or is not able to give consent is not concrete in many cases.
[/quote]

No? If you’ve seen her drinking, smell alcohol on her breath, picked her up at a bar, or she can’t walk a straight line, then don’t fuck her. Wait until tomorrow night and ask her then. Basically, if she gives you any of the common “I’m impaired” signals a police officer would look for in a routine traffic stop, she can’t give consent. Even if she really, really seems like she wants it. No one ever died from waiting 12 hours for sex.

AND, and and and, maybe we also need to stop teaching women (girls) that courage is found at the bottom of a bottle of Jack Daniels. Stop excusing behavior because someone was drunk. Stop teaching people that drunks aren’t responsible for their actions, because that only encourages people who aren’t comfortable asking for sex outright to get drunk before they ask for sex. It excuses it, you see. It wasn’t her fault she came onto you, she was a little bit wasted. Well, hello - taking advantage of that is wrong. Say no, tell her to sober up and then you’ll talk, and maybe she’ll grow as a person and start to *really *embrace her sexuality instead of treating it as her personal Mr. Hyde.

I suppose if you had a clear conversation before any drinking started, “Hey, wanna come over and get sloshed and screw?” then I (and probably any judge) could be persuaded your drunken screwing was consensual (as long as she didn’t drunkenly slur “Noooooo, waitstop I changed my mind,” during the act itself).

Well, yeah, I have to agree it’s a double standard. OTOH, in 99% of the encounters I’ve had, drunk or otherwise, the physical mechanics of things make it so that I don’t stand much of a chance getting a guy’s penis in me without his help. It’s USUALLY the case than penetration begins at his physical initiation. But perhaps a more equitable way to phrase it is that the onus is on *both *people to avoid intercourse without clear consent, and that consent cannot be given by an impaired person, so yeah, if they want to charge each other with rape later, go for it. Has anyone ever filed a countersuit for rape (or sexual assault) if he was also drunk?

Because most importantly, *neither *of them can give consent if they’re both drunk. To me, it’s like children “playing doctor” with other children - neither one can give consent, so you mostly tell them it’s inappropriate, knock it off.

106

[QUOTE=jsgoddess]
Then none of the rest of us have to listen to “nice guys” whining about how girls play games and play hard to get, because those girls would have to change their ways.
[/QUOTE]

Collective bargaining breaks down when the benefits of defecting (i.e. more sex) are greater than that of maintaining a united front. This is not a Nash equilibrium

[QUOTE=miss elizabeth]
How about stopping when she says no, and not trying to coerce a girl who clearly isn’t interested into sleeping with you?

Or, in other words, if she said no, and you didn’t stop, and went ahead, even if she didn’t scream at you, you** ARE** a rapist.
[/QUOTE]
Do not cheapen real rape by overapplication.

107

[QUOTE=Spit]
Obviously we are speaking in hypotheticals- I don’t walk around with a stack of legal papers. It would definitely kill my mood, and I’m sure hers as well. :smiley:

The problem is, with any type of instant hook-up, you would run this risk of miscommunication. I suppose we could all stop doing that, but what fun would it be?
[/QUOTE]

Look, there are going to be cases of false rape. There are going to be women who regret what they did, and for whatever reasons say a rape occurred when it did not, and she damn well knows it. it happens, and it’s wrong, and I don’t know what else to say on that issue. It happens to innocent men, and it sucks. People get falsely accused of lots of crimes for lots of reasons by lots of fucked up people, and it really really sucks for the innocent parties involved. I was friends with a man who was accused of rape by a woman he never even slept with (she was still a virgin in fact). She was a bit of a nutter, and I guess there is no way to protect yourself from this stuff sometimes. But that doesn’t make it ok, and I hate that it happens.

But that isn’t what this thread is about. This thread is about women who say no, but the guy keeps going. In other words, rape. But these women, they don’t feel like victims. Maybe they are more angry than sad, maybe they are friends with the guy, maybe they feel like there is no way to prove what happened, maybe they blame themselves to an extent because they didn’t scream or fight enough, or they were drunk, whatever. And so they want this new concept, “gray rape” for women who’ve been raped, but don’t “feel like a victim.” But we don’t need a new word, because the old word, “rape”, works just fine. And if these women don’t “feel like victims” maybe that’s because we need to expand our understanding of what a victim feels like. But having sex with a woman who says no is wrong. It is rape, and if you do it, you are a rapist.

Even in a hookup, maybe especially in a hookup, you should get consent. As I said, a simple, “I wanna fuck you, do you wanna fuck?” is fine. And you have to respect and abide by whatever she says. Not try to keep going, not even for a minute to see if she likes it. Not try and talk her into it. Just stop. And if you can’t manage that, then, yea, you shouldn’t be hooking up, because you are immature. You need to grow up before you inflict yourself on the women out there. If you get that clear and unambiguous go ahead, then go for it! But if for some reason you can’t, then don’t. It really is just that simple.

108

I had a friend in college and he was going out with a girl who he knew was also dating another guy. After a couple of months they had not had sex yet as she didn’t want to lose her virginity. So he and a different friend invited their girlfriends up to a cabin in the mountains for a weekend of fun. After getting in bad with the girl naked and exchanging oral pleasantries he puts on a condom and enters said girl. As soon as he is fully in she says that she doesn’t want to. My buddy pulled out rolled over and went to sleep with out saying another word to the girl. then next morning she woke him up with a blow job and explained that she had lost her virginity to the other guy the weekend before and that they were now a couple.

So the question is who raped who? He entered a girl with out explicit consent but the situational consent was clearly there. She didn’t want him inside and he entered. On the other hand he was mad at her, and as he told me when he got back, would have told her what she could do with another blowjob if she had asked. No one reported anything to the cops and I know he was pissed but didn’t necessarily feel violated so what do we want to call it?

109

[QUOTE=Robot Arm]
Respectful, no pressure, putting other people’s desires ahead of your own. There’s nothing really wrong with it; but I’ve lived most of my life that way and I can’t say it’s made me very happy, either.

Relationships of any kind are a messy, confusing, chaotic business. There will always be people who push the envelope in one way or another. Some take it too far and should get what they deserve. But the opposite extreme isn’t the answer, either.
[/QUOTE]

What? Are you serious? Being respectful of your partner is an “extreme”? This isn’t the pit, so I’ll just say I think this attitude might be why you’ve been unhappy in relationships, You don’t seem to understand what respect and equality really are.

110

[QUOTE=Oredigger77]
I had a friend in college and he was going out with a girl who he knew was also dating another guy. After a couple of months they had not had sex yet as she didn’t want to lose her virginity. So he and a different friend invited their girlfriends up to a cabin in the mountains for a weekend of fun. After getting in bad with the girl naked and exchanging oral pleasantries he puts on a condom and enters said girl. As soon as he is fully in she says that she doesn’t want to. My buddy pulled out rolled over and went to sleep with out saying another word to the girl. then next morning she woke him up with a blow job and explained that she had lost her virginity to the other guy the weekend before and that they were now a couple.

So the question is who raped who? He entered a girl with out explicit consent but the situational consent was clearly there. She didn’t want him inside and he entered. On the other hand he was mad at her, and as he told me when he got back, would have told her what she could do with another blowjob if she had asked. No one reported anything to the cops and I know he was pissed but didn’t necessarily feel violated so what do we want to call it?
[/QUOTE]

I don’t see rape on either side there. Do you?

111

[QUOTE=kidchameleon]

What the f…errr, this isn’t the pit…heck? Why is there a double standard here? These theoretically drunk folk are both theoretically both adults and should be held to the same freaking standard. This starts to tip toward the absurd, where men are having to guard the cock and the women are trying to get past the goalie.
[/QUOTE]

Look, the guy is the one doing the doing, ok? In these situation, the woman is the passive partner. So, it’s up to the guy to not make put his penis into a woman who has not consented. It isn’t a double standard; it’s basic biology. If he’s drunk, and somehow magically has a hard on, and she gets on top without consent, then she’s a rapist too, ok? Does that make you feel better? I’m not aware of this being a problem, but if it ever comes up, there you go.

[QUOTE=athelas]
Do not cheapen real rape by overapplication.
[/QUOTE]

Don’t excuse rape with trifling semantics. If she says no, and you don’t stop, you’re a rapist. And if that makes you, athelas, a rapist, well, sorry. You need to learn to deal with what you’ve done.

112

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
No? If you’ve seen her drinking, smell alcohol on her breath, picked her up at a bar, or she can’t walk a straight line, then don’t fuck her. Wait until tomorrow night and ask her then. Basically, if she gives you any of the common “I’m impaired” signals a police officer would look for in a routine traffic stop, she can’t give consent. Even if she really, really seems like she wants it. No one ever died from waiting 12 hours for sex.
[/QUOTE]
Oh for crying out loud, is this a joke? These are women, who actually should be capable of the most rudimentary management of their own lives. It is not up to men to decide for her whether or not she can consent, when she is upright, conscious and able to speak for herself.

I pick up a girl in a bar and she tells me she wants to have sex, and we go somewhere and have sex, with her as an enthusiastic participant, she consented. I don’t give a rats ass if she drank a fifth of vodka and chased it with a few lines of coke. If you can stand up, say yes, and participate in sex, the fact that you wouldn’t have done it while sober means you should work on staying sober.

113

[QUOTE=miss elizabeth]
Don’t excuse rape with trifling semantics. If she says no, and you don’t stop, you’re a rapist. And if that makes you, athelas, a rapist, well, sorry. You need to learn to deal with what you’ve done.
[/QUOTE]
Whooee. Shall I deal with your off-the-wall ideas, your rabidness, or your erroneous leap to judgment? Or some combination of the above? This is kid-in-a-candy-store territory.

114

[QUOTE=Cheesesteak]
Oh for crying out loud, is this a joke? These are women, who actually should be capable of the most rudimentary management of their own lives. It is not up to men to decide for her whether or not she can consent, when she is upright, conscious and able to speak for herself.

I pick up a girl in a bar and she tells me she wants to have sex, and we go somewhere and have sex, with her as an enthusiastic participant, she consented. I don’t give a rats ass if she drank a fifth of vodka and chased it with a few lines of coke. If you can stand up, say yes, and participate in sex, the fact that you wouldn’t have done it while sober means you should work on staying sober.
[/QUOTE]

This is true, as long as we are talking about an “enthusiastic participant”. I’m not so sure what it says about your idea of good sex, but I don’t think it’s rape.

But what if she drank a fifth of vodka, and then passed out on your couch? Is it okay to have sex with her then? What if you were making out before she passed out, but she never really said yes to sex? What if, in fact, she wakes up some as you’re trying to have sex with her, and says “No”? Is that rape?

115

[QUOTE=Cheesesteak]
I pick up a girl in a bar and she tells me she wants to have sex, and we go somewhere and have sex, with her as an enthusiastic participant, she consented. I don’t give a rats ass if she drank a fifth of vodka and chased it with a few lines of coke. If you can stand up, say yes, and participate in sex, the fact that you wouldn’t have done it while sober means you should work on staying sober.
[/QUOTE]
And if she had gone out in a car and run someone over, driving drunk would be, shall we say, a rather poor defense. It’s odd how when it comes to consenting to sex, suddenly all the responsibility is lifted, and thrown onto the shoulders of a man (even if he is likewise intoxicated)

116

Here’s the grayest hypothetical I can come up with:

There’s a couple who live together and fairly frequently have sex. One night, they have had a fight. Later on, the guy is over it and thinks that everything is OK, but the girl doesn’t. He starts activities clearly intended to lead to sex. She says no. So he stops. A while later, he thinks that sufficient time has passed and maybe she’s in a better mood. So he again attempts to initiate sex. She doesn’t say anything. Penis enuse.

From his perspective, she said no, so he stopped, because he’s not a rapist. Later on, he was hoping she’d be more in the mood, and, apparently, she was.

From her perspective, she said no, but then he tried again, and she was too frightened/passive aggressive/exhausted to object so just let it happen.

From the male perspective, part of the reason this topic always generates such controversy is that basically-decent men do not want to think they might be rapists. “Rapist” is up there with “child molestor” and “nazi”. Your average nice guy is 100% certain that he has never hit a woman over the head, dragged her into an alley and forcibly raped her, and that he never would. But is he also 100% certain that he’s never – likely involving some alcohol, some things-looking-different-from-different-perspectives and perhaps a heavy does of early-20s-hormones-and-stupidity – engaged in sex which, when viewed from his partner’s perspective, was non-consensual?

117

[QUOTE=athelas]
Whooee. Shall I deal with your off-the-wall ideas, your rabidness, or your erroneous leap to judgment? Or some combination of the above? This is kid-in-a-candy-store territory.
[/QUOTE]

Please, deal with them all. I’d love to see how you can take “It’s rape if she says no and you don’t stop” into some off the wall idea.

118

[QUOTE=miss elizabeth]
But what if she drank a fifth of vodka, and then passed out on your couch? Is it okay to have sex with her then?
[/QUOTE]
No, I don’t even consider that a gray area. Sex with an unconscious person is verboten, unless the people have some sort of kinky arrangement to allow it.

But there’s no way I’m buying the idea that a person who’s had a few, or a few too many, can’t agree to have sex and participate.

119

[QUOTE=Cheesesteak]
No, I don’t even consider that a gray area. Sex with an unconscious person is verboten, unless the people have some sort of kinky arrangement to allow it.

But there’s no way I’m buying the idea that a person who’s had a few, or a few too many, can’t agree to have sex and participate.
[/QUOTE]

Well, great, because no one really said that.

120

[QUOTE=miss elizabeth]
Well, great, because no one really said that.
[/QUOTE]

Well, actually, WhyNot said:

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
No? If you’ve seen her drinking, smell alcohol on her breath, picked her up at a bar, or she can’t walk a straight line, then don’t fuck her. Wait until tomorrow night and ask her then. Basically, if she gives you any of the common “I’m impaired” signals a police officer would look for in a routine traffic stop, she can’t give consent. Even if she really, really seems like she wants it. No one ever died from waiting 12 hours for sex.
[/QUOTE]

Those seem like pretty stringent requirements.