It seems that most of the men in the thread are saying that it’s too hard to make sure they get consent and it’s unfair to be held responsible for not getting consent.
The benefits of defecting should be weighed against the risks of defecting. You yourself can see the risk in the behavior (in the post I replied to) but if you’re going to shrug off the risk, why should I feel any sympathy?
I don’t view it as rape but the way this discussion is going a man that does not explicitly ask for consent, which in this case she probably would not have given based on her relationship status, and then penetrates the girl is a rapist. And a person who fondles and unconscious person’s genitals is also a rapist.
I think that once certain situations are entered into there is the expectation of sex If i get into bed with a woman with both of us naked and I put a condom on and I’m expecting to get laid. Now if she tells me no, expectations change but until then I see no reason to assume other wise.
You’re right, she did. Sorry. Why Not will have to explain or clarify that; I’m not sure I agree with it.
Why not just ask first? If in doubt, ask.
The reason people aren’t permitted to drink and drive is that their own judgment is impaired.
If you (general you) can’t have sex other than with people whose judgment is impaired, well, think about that.
Generally speaking, I avoid anything serious with anyone who is above the limit for driving. That would include having heartfelt conversations, having sex, signing legal documents, or playing with guns or small thermonuclear devices.
But if I decide to drive while I’m drunk, that’s my decision, and I should be held responsible for it, correct?
So why would it be some random dude’s responsibility to make sure that I don’t have any regrettable intercourse?
I sincerely don’t understand why my drunken decision to have sex should be taken any less seriously than my drunken decision to drive, simply because I happen to be a woman.
They are, and while I’m not sure that they should be required by law or anything, if every guy would simply use the same criteria for having sex with someone as they would for getting into the car that person was driving, they’d be safer.
I don’t excuse the women, by the way. Generally, though, the person at greater risk should take greater precautions. And the person at greater risk for getting caught in this particular snare (the rape accusation) is the man. The person at greater risk for being raped is the woman. They both should grow the hell up.
This is what I’m wondering, too. If a woman is passed out drunk, then yes, don’t have sex with her. That’s wrong, and it is clearly a case of rape. But if a woman is drunk and willing to have sex, is it a man’s responsibility to keep her from mounting him and doing the deed?
Sure. And if someone gets into the car with you and gets killed, too bad for them.
It’s his responsibility the same way it’s his responsibility to make sure you’re over 18 (or whatever the age is). He has to protect himself.
The same way a bartender has to refuse to serve you if you’re drunk or underage.
Being a woman isn’t really the issue. If two gay men have sex and one is intoxicated, the other guy can also be on the hook for rape.
It should be taken “less seriously” because there’s another person who is capable of good judgment. He’s a fool if he just turns off that part of his brain in order to get laid.
You would also be a fool for doing the same thing, and the more prevalent it was, the more foolish you’d be.
The men in this thread seem to think it’s very very very prevalent, so they are stupid if they don’t protect themselves.
Whooooa. While I agree that ‘rape’ can be overapplied and misapplied in certain situations, I am having trouble figuring out how the hypothetical situation you’re referring to isn’t rape. Was it the screaming bit? If so… How loudly? Do victims have to scream now? What if they fear physical violence? Same thing with mugging victims?
If you’re sober and you knowingly get into a car with a drunk driver and the car crashes and you’re badly injured, whose fault is your injury? (Not talking the law, just generally.) To me, both you and the driver are at fault. The driver for driving, and you for willingly getting in the car.
When you know that someone’s judgment is impaired yet you trust their judgment anyway, what can I say other than that you’re being foolish?
Alcohol impairs judgment. Trusting impaired people is stupid. Don’t be stupid.
That’s my entire mantra.
Well, that and “If women play games that end in men getting hurt, both the men and the women involved should be smacked.”
No, people are not permitted to drink and drive because their ability to drive is impaired. No drunk person has ever been given a pass from the government on bad decisions they made while drunk, they are held 100% responsible for their actions, just as if they made the decision while sober.
But why would there be doubt? Oh that’s right I’m supposed to talk to the girl in the loud club that is grinding my crotch and I can’t hear myself think because of the music. Once we’re outside I’m supposed to take her tongue out of my throat so I can get to know her better. Of course I can’t be worried about my performance or any of the hundred other thing going through my drunk mind enough stop and do a final systems check when I’ve seen no signs to this point that she is unwilling.
I just don’t buy that since we’re doing the penetrating it always our fault. “No” needs to be said at some point. Proceeding from that point makes you a rapist and fucking some one who is unconscious makes you a rapist and a pervert.
I do not believe you are correct. Contracts signed while a person was drunk can be contested I believe. I am not a lawyer.
By saying it’s all on her, aren’t you saying that the man isn’t being held 100% responsible for his own actions? She’s 100% responsible for both of their actions?
This is getting a bit off topic- In my experience, women wanted a man who was in control in the bedroom*. In fact, out of all the women I have been with, none did not. (Occasionally, they would be the dominate to switch things up- you get the idea though)
I can’t help but think asking, “May I please have sex with you?” might just kill the mood.
But that’s just me.
*I’m not sure if these are SFW, I quickly scanned the pages.
Furthermore, it keeps being tossed about that guys are just “Sticking it in” wholesale. I would like to point out that we actually have to put some effort into getting our genitals prepared for sex. You don’t generally rise to the occasion unless you are assisted.
So, it’s her fault your dick is hard? I guess she was “asking for it” huh? This is disgusting.
Yea, that’s exactly what I said to do, too, isn’t it? Why don’t you try actually, I don’t know, reading, what I wrote. Look, if you can’t ask, because you might not get to have sex that way, well, then you answered your own question alright? There is a time and a place when consent is implied, but a drunken hookup with someone you just met isn’t it. Now, if she unzips your pants, rolls on a condom, takes of her panties, and lays back with her legs spread, no I don’t think you have to ask before you stick it in. But, IF IN DOUBT, ask. Why is this so hard to understand? And if you have doubts, and don’t ask, and later she says it was non-consensual, you deserve very little sympathy for your plight.
I wonder how long it’ll be before you lot stop arguing past each other and realize you pretty much agree on the bigger picture? Or at least start arguing with what the other people are actually saying, rather than twisting it ever so slightly.
That’s because **kidchameleon **spoke of “the vagueries of being able to decide if someone is or is not able to give consent” and I just don’t think they’re very vague unless you’re putting your genitals in front of your head. (And to do that, sticking your head up your ass, I guess.)
I guess I’m coming at this from a different place than some in the thread. Where some seem to be looking for loopholes and reasons to have drunken sex, I’m looking at it from a legal and moral cover-your-ass position. Drunk people make stupid decisions. Drunk people do things they later regret. If you want to cover-your-ass and make as certain as is practically possible that you don’t get charged in court with rape, and that you don’t wind up freaking someone out and causing emotional damage unwittingly, then I strongly suggest you don’t have sex with drunk people.
Do I think a drunk woman who is writhing on your crotch and sticking her tongue in your ear wants sex? Yes, those are pretty good signs. But they are not *legal *signs of consent. They are not the actions of a person working within her normal moral or ethical framework, most likely. To take advantage of that is wrong, and the law reflects that.
Morally, giving someone what they want in the moment is no excuse. My toddler would really, really, really like it if I let her run out into the street so she could pick up a shiny pebble. She’d really like it if I let her eat nothing but chocolate bars and ice cream. She’d really like it if she had no bedtime, and could watch television all day. And if I let that happen because she really wanted it, I’d be a terrible mother and guilty in a court of law of child neglect - 'cause she’s not of an age to legally consent to those things, and she’s not of a moral development to consent to such things.
A drunk person is no more legally or morally able to give consent to sex, to enter into contracts or to drive a car than a toddler is. And the other person in each transaction (the sex partner, the contract holder or the person who handed them the keys) is certainly morally guilty of taking advantage of the situation, and in some cases legally culpable as well.
However, all this is off-topic. “Grey rape” is not describing false accusations, get-drunk-and-screw and regret it later or combined drunk sex. “Grey rape”, from all the examples I’ve seen is in the not-grey area. The “grey rape” Cosmo is writing about is always accompanied by refusal, if not terribly exuberant resistance. The refusal is what makes it clear rape to me, not grey at all.
I’m not saying there aren’t questionable circumstances where one can wonder whether or not a rape happened. There are, for sure, and MaxTheVool’s hypothetical is about as grey as I can imagine. (And for the record, I’d say no, probably not rape, because she didn’t speak up at all. One really needs to communicate one’s refusal, especially in a long-term relationship.) But it’s not the kind of scenario covered by Cosmo.
Thank you for that, Why Not. It was very well put.
Every time I agree with her, she always states it better than I do. Damn her. 