Greatest Scientists Ever: Elimination Game

[Kent_Clark]

Eliminate

Tyson, Neil deGrasse

Yeah, he’s been a good voice for science, but his actual research and accomplishments have been pretty slim. Sagan accomplished much more and was a more influential advocate.

Ockham, William of

The Razor is a useful tool for science, but it’s more of a philosophical idea. We might as well nominate Ronald Reagan for coming up with, “Trust, but verify.”

I’m tempted to veto all the economists because economics is social science, not physical, but let’s see who else survives the cut before I use any more vetoes.

Keep

Jacob of Nisbus

I nominated him, and by golly I’ll defend him. He founded a university, not just a seminary, and that university taught medicine and other sciency stuff. If nothing else, consider him a “patron” and base your decision on that.

[Snarky_Kong]

@kunilou

Keep

Jacob of Nisbus

I nominated him, and by golly I’ll defend him. He founded a university, not just a seminary, and that university taught medicine and other sciency stuff. If nothing else, consider him a “patron” and base your decision on that.

Ok, I will. A patron of the sciences isn’t a scientist. If I pay for piano lessons, that doesn’t make me a musician.

[Quartz]

@kunilou

Ockham, William of

The Razor is a useful tool for science, but it’s more of a philosophical idea.

Could we not say the same of the Scientific Method itself? Indeed, it complements the Scientific Method; as Wikipedia puts it:

In the scientific method, Occam’s razor is not considered an irrefutable principle of logic or a scientific result; the preference for simplicity in the scientific method is based on the falsifiability criterion. For each accepted explanation of a phenomenon, there may be an extremely large, perhaps even incomprehensible, number of possible and more complex alternatives. Since one can always burden failing explanations with ad hoc hypotheses to prevent them from being falsified, simpler theories are preferable to more complex ones because they are more testable.

But Ockham himself was more a philosopher than a scientist so he’s on a later kill-list for me.

[Measure_for_Measure]

Keep Maurice Hilleman - saved millions of lives by developing over 40 vaccines. Placeholder for normal science. Maurice Hilleman - Wikipedia
Keep Kenneth Arrow - Groundbreaking and rigorous work in wide span of economic research. Economics has data, testing, and theory, what more do you want?

Eliminate Freud - not a scientist, not an empiricist, cared nothing for falsification, damaged psychological science for decades.

Eliminate Edison, Thomas. A great man who established industrialized research. But cared little for scientific theory, thereby wasting time. His successors would correct that deficiency. Might make top 200 list though.

Leibnitz - stole idea of calculus from Newton… JUST KIDDING.

Eliminate Carl Sagan - great populizer, not leader in his field.

Eliminate Gutenberg, Johannes on a technicality: he’s not a scientist. He advanced science tremendously, but that’s not the same thing.

Eliminate Tyson, Neil - I love the guy, but he isn’t a leader in astronomy, he’s a popularizer.

Eliminate Ge Hong - hard to see the science in the wiki article.

Eliminate Huygens, Christiaan. I think the list is a little physics-heavy; this great man won’t make the cut.

So that’s 2 keeps and 7 eliminates.

[septimus]

We have a whopping 100 scientists to eliminate just to get down to the 36 finalists. I’ll want advice to ensure that the game proceeds at a proper pace. Eventually, the vote allotment will be reduced from Nine, but perhaps an even larger number is appropriate for the early rounds?

I have not double-checked the counts but there appear to be ten who have already got 3 or more eviction votes:
Tyson 7
Freud 5
Nisibis, St. Jacob 6 minus 1 keep
Sagan 4
Edison 4
Friedman 4
Ockham 4
Ge Hong 3
Lamarr 3
Ricardo 3
Aristotle, Adam Smith, Arrow, Gutenberg, Jung, Wigner - 2 each

I plan to evict all the 4’s and Ge Hong about 9 hours from now, so that players can reuse their votes more quickly. For example, if five or six of his picks are eliminated, Snarky Kong will get 5 or 6 new votes this afternoon.

A good Mod would add a little humor — that’s all my “quasi-misogynist … Hedy Lamarr” was intended as — but my feeble attempts just irritate and confuse. Similarly, with the heavy voting against the “capitalists” Milton Friedman and Adam Smith I’m tempted to ask if you guys would rather have Karl Marx on the list … but will refrain.

[Gyrate]

I’ll use my last vote to evict Kenneth Arrow. Because there are too damn many economists on this list.

[septimus]

Remember: Every SDMB Member or Guest may vote, even if you didn’t participate in the Nomination phase. The rules favor whoever Votes Early and Votes Often!

Votes are not binding: You may change them at any time.

I missed this earlier:

@What_Exit

Sagan, Carl
Edison, Thomas
Friedman, Milton
Jung, Karl
Lamarr, Hedy
Tyson, Neil deGrasse
St. Jacob of Nisibis
Freud, Sigmund
Aristotle

Keep
Ben Franklin

I have 1 keep left. I’ll use it later.

You’re allowed 9 votes*** Total***. If you use two Keeps, then you only get seven Evicts. So instead of having 1 vote left, you need to cancel one of the votes you have. (Benjamin Franklin is in no immediate danger so, if I don’t hear from you, I’ll cancel your Keep Franklin.)

Measure for Measure also appears to have ten votes down, but it looks like Leibniz wasn’t intended. Show mercy on me, folks! — use parentheses or something to name someone without voting.

I will do the first eliminations at about 2 pm EST — in an hour and half. With the votes as they stand now, seven scientists will be eliminated:
Tyson 7
Freud 6
Sagan 5
Nisibis, St. Jacob of 6-1 = 5
Friedman 4
Edison 4
Ge Hong 3
And there will be a second elimination 24 hours later, based on the counts then.
Don’t forget: Once the eliminations are announced at 2 pm, those of you who voted for any of the evictees can re-use those votes to evict someone else.
(Several of you will get four or more new votes that way.)

Other scientists with 2 or more votes (whether Evict or Keep) are
Lamarr 3
Ockham 3
Ricardo 3
Aristotle 2
Smith, Adam 2
Arrow 2-1 = 1
Gutenberg 2
Jung 2
Franklin, Benj 1-1 = 0
Hilleman, Maurice 1-1 = 0
Thorne, Kip 1-1 = 0

[What_Exit]

Sorry, Please cancel my Tyson, he’ll be gone anyway from the looks of it.

[septimus]

Elimination Round #1 is over. The seven names in my previous post are killed:
Tyson 7
Freud 6
Sagan 5
Nisibis, St. Jacob of 6-1 = 5
Friedman 4
Edison 4
Ge Hong 3

Elimination Round #2 will end 24 hours from now. I don’t know yet what the threshold for elimination will be tomorrow.

In Round #2, like Round #1, players will have nine votes total (8 evicts/1 keep, or 9-0, 7-2)
When you vote in Round 2. please also tell me the number of votes-per-player you recommend for Round #3.

Scientist List [spoiler]
Agassiz, Louis - biology, geology
Al-Biruni, Abu Rayhan Muhammad - natural philosophy
Al-Khwarizmi, Muhammad ibn Musa - math, astronomy
Alhazen Ibn al-Haytham - physics, etc.
Anning, Mary - paleontology
Archimedes - math, physics
Aristotle - philosophy, geology, biology, etc.
Arrow, Kenneth - economics
Babbage, Charles - computer science
Bacon, Francis - philosophy
Bardeen, John - physics, invention
Bernard, Claude - physiology
Berzelius, Jacob - chemistry
Boas, Franz - anthropology
Bohr, Niels - atomic physics
Boltzmann, Ludwig - thermodynamics
Borlaug, Norman - agronomics
Boyle, Robert - chemistry, physics
Brahmagupta - math, astronomy
Braun, Wernher von - rocket science
Bruno, Giordano - philosophy
Cannon, Annie Jump - astronomy
Copernicus, Nicolas - astronomy
Crick, Francis - Dna
Curie, Marie - radioactivity
Dalton, John - chemistry
Darwin, Charles - biology
Davy, Sir Humphrey - chemistry
Dirac, Paul - physics
Doppler, Christian - physics
Einstein, Albert - physics
Eratosthenes - math, astronomy
Euclid - math
Euler, Leonhard - math
Faraday, Michael - electromagnetism, etc.
Fermat, Pierre de - math, optics
Fermi, Enrico - atomic physics
Feynman, Richard - physics
Fleming, Sir Alexander - medicine, biology
Franklin, Benjamin - physics, etc.
Franklin, Rosalind - chemistry, X-ray crystallography
Galen, of Pergamon - biology, medicine
Galileo - physics, astronomy, etc.
Gauss, Karl - math, astronomy
Gell-Mann, Murray - physics
Goddard, Robert - rocket science
Godel, Kurt - math
Goethe, Johann Wolfgang von - natural philosophy
Goodall, Jane - primatology
Gutenberg, Johannes - invention
Haber, Fritz - chemistry; invention (fertilizer, gas warfare)
Halley, Edmond - astronomy, etc.
Hamilton, William - astronomy, optics, math
Harvey, William - anatomy, blood
Hawking, Stephen - cosmology
Heisenberg, Werner - quantum theory
Hilleman, Maurice - biology, vaccination; saved more lives
Hipparchus, of Nicaea - astronomy, etc.
Hippocrates, of Cos - medicine
Hopper, Grace - computer science
Hubble, Edwin - astronomy
Hutton, James - geologist
Huygens, Christiaan - optics, physics
Ibn al-Nafis - anatomy, blood
Jenner, Edward - vaccination
Jung, Carl - psychology
Kepler, Johannes - astronomy, math
Keynes, John Maynard - economics
Lamarr, Hedy - invention
Lavoisier, Antoine - chemistry
Leakey, Louis - anthropology
Leavitt, Henrietta Swan - astronomy
Leeuwenhoek, Antonie van - microbiology, microscopy
Leibnitz, Gottfried - math, physics, etc.
Leonardo da Vinci - anatomy, invention, etc.
Liebig, Justus von - organic chemistry; a great practical scientist.
Linnaeus, Carolus - botany, taxonomy
Lister, Joseph - antiseptics
Lovelace, Ada Byron Countess of - computer science
Lyell, Charles - geology
Mach, Ernst - physics, cosmology
Marconi, Guglielmo - radio transmission
Marsh, Othneil = paleontology
Maxwell, James Clerk - physics
McClintock, Barbara - genetics
Mead, Margaret - anthropology
Meitner, Lise - atomic physics
Mendel, Gregor - genetics
Mendeleev, Dmitri - chemistry
Michelson, Albert - astronomy; speed of light
Morley, Edward - astronomy, chemistry, optics, and physics.
Mullis, Kary - biology
Neumann, John von - computer science, etc.
Newton, Sir Isaac - math, physics
Noether, Emmy - math
Ockham, William of - philosophy
Oppenheimer, Robert - atomic physics
Pasteur, Louis - chemistry, biology
Patterson. Clair - geochemistry
Pauli, Wolfgang - quantum physics
Pauling, Linus - chemistry
Planck, Max - quantum physics
Poincare, Henri - math
Ptolemy - astronomy
Pythagoras - math
Ricardo, David - economics
Rubin, Vera - astronomy
Russell, Bertrand - math
Rutherford, Ernest - nuclear physics, atomic theory, radioactivity.
Sakharov, Andrei - nuclear physics
Salk, Jonas - medicine, vaccination
Samuelson, Paul - economics
Schrodinger, Erwin - wave mechanics
Semmelweis, Ignaz - antiseptics
Shannon, Claude - computer science
Smith, Adam - economics
Smith, William - geology
Tesla, Nicolai - physics, invention
Thales, of Miletus - math
Thorne, Kip - physics
Turing, Alan - computer science, etc.
Ventner, Craig - genetics
Vesalius, Andreas - founder of anatomical sciences
Virchow, Rudolf - medicine, cell doctrine, etc.
Volta, Alessandro - chemistry, physics
Watson, James - Dna
Wegener, Alfred - meteorology, continental drift
Wigner, Eugene - physics, symmetry
Zhang Heng - astronomy, mechanics

[del]Edison, Thomas Alva - invention[/del] 11/09
[del]Freud, Sigmund - psychology[/del] 11/09
[del]Friedman, Milton - economics[/del] 11/09
[del]Ge Hong - philosophy, alchemy[/del] 11/09
[del]Nisibis, St. Jacob of - theology, founded early school[/del] 11/09
[del]Sagan, Carl - astronomy[/del] 11/09
[del]Tyson, Neil deGrasse - astrophysics, science popularizer[/del] 11/09
[/spoiler]

Players bunched up, so that many have replacement votes coming (I’ve not double-checked all figures):
Snarky gets 6 new votes (assuming he keeps his leftovers: Franklin, Jung, Lamarr), Pepperwinkle gets 3, Gyrate 4, Chronos 5, What Exit? 6 new votes, Sternvogel 1, Quartz 2, penultima thule 3, kunilou 8, Measure for Measure 5, and of course many of you — especially including bordelond, Dendarii Dame, JohnT, Little Nemo — have all nine votes coming. ( Of course any player may write: Cancel previous. Here are nine new votes.)

[Sternvogel]

Eliminations:

Anning, Mary
Arrow, Kenneth
Bruno, Giordano
Hamilton, William
Noether, Emmy
Patterson, Clair
Ricardo, David
Samuelson, Paul
Wigner, Eugene

I’ll suggest we each get twelve votes for the next round.

[septimus]

@septimus

When you vote in Round 2, please also tell me the number of votes-per-player you recommend for Round #3.

And, since we’re coming up on a weekend (Round #2 ends Friday afternoon), tell me when Round 3 should end. Monday?

[JohnT]

Tyson, Neil deGrasse - astrophysics, science popularizer
Goethe, Johann Wolfgang von - natural philosophy
Lamarr, Hedy - invention
Edison, Thomas Alva - invention
Friedman, Milton - economics
Samuelson, Paul - economics
Smith, Adam - economics
Ricardo, David - economics
Keynes, John Maynard - economics

This is my “why was this person on this list?” elimination vote. While I consider Edison to be one of the most influential people of our age, and he discovered the Edison effect… naw. Not a scientist.

Same thing with the economists (and where was Marx on this list?). They aren’t scientists.

[Measure_for_Measure]

Among the (5) economists, I might order them roughly as follows. (OBTW, 5/136= 3.7%, hardly overwhelming)

Most keepable

(((Samuelson)))- Not merely a popularizer: his textbook cemented the economic paradigm of microeconomics covering individual markets (and needing special justification for governmental intervention) and macroeconomics covering whole economies (which are inherently unstable so they require some sort of management, even if it’s merely that of a central bank). He also did groundbreaking research on his own, not incidentally including considerable mathematical rigor during the 1930s.

(((Arrow))) - see preceding

(((Keynes))) - constructed the first model of a whole economy, thereby basically inventing macro-economics. …But Hicks did it better a couple of years later.

(((Ricardo))) - thought more deeply about the concepts that Adam Smith introduced.

(((Friedman))) - http://delong.typepad.com/pdf/20070308_108-115.delong.FINAL.pdf

(((Adam Smith))) - arguably too chatty to really be considered a scientist.
Least keepable.

[JohnT]

I understand.

However, econ was my major and the proportion of bullshit:math was about 60:40, if that. In my experience, of course.

[Measure_for_Measure]

@JohnT

Same thing with the economists (and where was Marx on this list?). They aren’t scientists.

I kept Marx off intentionally. He advocated the overturning of capitalism while dismissing small scale attempts to establish socialism (later called Utopian experiments). That’s a cardinal error, and a non-scientific one: you need to do a proof of concept before instituting massive changes. Furthermore, Marx can be paired with Freud as a thinker whose followers were hostile to hypothesis testing and falsification. Ref: Karl Popper.

Economics is (mostly) a non-experimental system science, like meteorology. One difference is that the data tends to be quarterly or monthly, while weather data can be daily or even hourly.

Economists get a bad rap due to macroeconomic forecasting, which frankly isn’t very good (though earthquake prediction is arguably worse). But macro-forecasting is a small part of the field.

[Prof.Pepperwinkle]

To keep it simple, drop my previous votes. I’d stay with 9 votes, and end the next one on Monday.

Current votes for elimination:

Arrow, Kenneth
Gutenberg, Johann
Haber, Fritz
Jenner, Edward
Keynes, J. M.
Lamarr, Hedy
Ricardo, David
Samuelson, Paul
Smith, Adam

[JohnT]

@septimus

And, since we’re coming up on a weekend (Round #2 ends Friday afternoon), tell me when Round 3 should end. Monday?

I would propose making a schedule, announcing it, and then keeping to it. Like the third post here: The 100 Most Influential People - Try the Third - The Game Room - Straight Dope Message Board

Also, can’t change things once the game has started. Keep things as they are, no more rule changes, additions/deletions, and just let it play out. Otherwise, what’s the point other than getting some vague predetermined outcome?

[Measure_for_Measure]

Finally:

Scientific American (SA) routinely carries articles on economics, though admittedly its editors have differing tastes from the American Economic Review (AER). But then again, the AER is far more math heavy than SA, which tends to favor charting over formulas, never mind multivariate regression.

[Snarky_Kong]

Benjamin Franklin
Jung
Lamarr
Gutenburg
Ockham
Arrow
Adam Smith

[Aspidistra]

For my picks, I have started from the beginning of the list, giving rough rankings based on
*output over their lifetime (I have been relatively kind to the earlier scientists on the basis that if we have less evidence for them it’s not their fault)
*non-obviousness of their discoveries at the time
*extent to which they are a trailblazer, early leader, or creator of their field.

I found 9 names which came in under my arbitrary floor by the time I got to F. There may be even better examples in the second half of the list, but I’ll probably ditch them next turn.

This round’s picks:

Mary Anning
Kenneth Arrow
John Bardeen
Ludwig Boltzmann
Norman Borlaug
Wernher von Braun
Annie Jump Cannon
Christian Doppler
Alexander Fleming