The diffraction of sunlight by the air, and Afghanistan. Both rather well known.
If they did things deserving of hatred, of course they deserved to be hated. By definition.
I don’t think I said that. But if you were worried about arguing using facts and logic, you might note that the silly thing you’re arguing is exactly what you and Valteron are doing by demonizing all Muslims by the actions of a few hundred.
The only possible thing to take from this is that you and Valteron are worse than Al Quaeda. 
Pot, meet kettle.
Huh?
Before you start throwing around self righteous anger, I’m gonna guess I knew a lot more people that were in the world trade center that morning than you did so don’t even start to pretend like you care more about those folks than I do. I see way too many people who metaphorically dig up the corpses of the folks that died on 9/11 and use them as a prop for their arguments when they can’t seem to figure out how to make a convincing argument that doesn’t rely on emotion. Let me also say that I am not excusing al qeada by any means, I am saying that there is a difference between saying that the terrorist’s hatred of America is because of who we and saying that terrorists hate us because of what we have done. I’m not saying that we deserve it and maybe I shouldn’t have used the word blame or compared America’s foreign policy (especially in the middle east) to horse theft but the fact remains that if we were decadent westerners that never got involved in the middle east then 9/11 probably wouldn’t have happened.
And no, none of the individuals that died on 9/11 did anything to deserve death but I don’t think al Qaeda was targeting individuals that morning, they were targeting America. I think your comments about muslims slain on 9/11 probably means you already knew that.
BTW, why do you distinguish the death of the firefighters from the death of the office workers or are you just getting caught up in emotion about the victims and heroes of 9/11?
oooh snap :eek:
Doesn’t the Taliban have its roots in the cold war when we supported Afghani militarism, nationalism and religious fanaticism to fight the Socviets? IS it me or have we spent the last 25 years fighting the monsters we created to fight for us during the cold war?
You may well have know more, but I heard my friend from high schooll describe how she climbed down forty flights of stairs barefoot because she couldn’t do it in heels. It was chilling when she said “most of her friends” made it out Another friend’s niece worked there, but was late for work. His nephew worked there as well, but was temporarily stationed in London. His father in-law worked across town and watched the towers go down not knowing if the people he loved were safe. Another friend went outside her apt after the first plane hit, just in time to see the 2nd.
I wish the hell the US would stay out of the mid-east, but I also know that “US foreign policy” is just code for Israel. I’m not willing to stand by and watch the carnage if a full scale mid-east war breaks out as I am sure it would if the US deserted Israel. Regardless of who “won”, Muslims would die.
At the same time I look at places like Saudi Arabia the same way I do South Africa during Apartheid. It’s a nasty anachronism that suppresses its own people. The fact that they are women rather than black people does not make it any less disgusting.
The people in power in the mid-east fan the flames of hatred towards Israel and America to keep their citizens distracted from the corruption of their governments. Despite the enormous wealth in some countries, there has been little progress in making the lives of average citizens better. As many Muslims as have died from American military action, more have died from fellow Muslims.
As a liberal, I am ashamed to see the left act as apologists and enablers of Islamic terrorism and of the chilling effects on free speech from threats of violence to people who dare say anything critical of Islam.
Islam as practiced in Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Afghanistan is a throw back to medieval views on human rights. Even progressive countries like Indonesia are seeing terrorist attacks and radicals there provide safe haven for terrorist groups from other countries.
Most of the 9/11 terrorists were from Saudi Arabia which is not threatened by America. They were not poor and uneducated, they were middle-class or more well off. Their minds were poisoned by Imams preaching hate of the west.
Islamic terrorism is particularly cynical and horrific in that it sends its own youths to die in the act of explicitly targeting civilians on the other side. That is about as perverse as humans can get.
And for bombing cities, conquering nations, propping up dictators, instigating wars and so on. Israel could sink into the ocean and all Muslims could become atheists, and the people of the ME would still have plenty of reasons to hate us. They should hate us.
Der Trihs, I usually agree with just about everything you post, but I gotta call you on this one. Yes, we are an energy-hungry nation, and yes, there is much oil in the ME, so, yes, we would probably be criminally meddlesome there even if the hypotheticals you mentioned were true, so, yes, they would still have reason to “hate us”, but it would be (I think) in a way more akin to how many Guatemalans or Chileans who remember our Cold War interventions “hate us” – that is, unlikely to act on that hate in a mass-murderous fashion. That’s the part that has to be attributed, to one degree or another, to the fact that the 9-11 planners and their ilk were/are *not *“athiests”, but rather follow a particularly radical brand of a particular religion.
I disagree. The fact that they are religious fanatics was I’m sure the major reason they were willing to suicide in the process, but people have certainly committed mass murder for reasons having nothing to do with religion.
Also, I was mainly commenting on the inaccuracy of this claim:
Which pretty much amounts to a claim that the people of the Middle East aren’t human, because anyone human would be angry with us for what we’ve done over the years.
Fair enough. I hear you.
More than they are at the French, British, and Belgians for colonization, or between Iraq and Iran, or between Sunni and Shia who continue to try and kill each other, or the Egyptians for not taking in the Palestinian refugees, or their own leaders for being dictators that raid the treasuries, or towards the men that suppress the rights of women, or the religious police who beat people not adhering to a narrow interpretation of Islam?
Every anti-American rant begins and ends with Israel. It’s a convenient issue to divert attention from the real problems facing the middle-east.
ETA: and the only time I hear people being characterized as not-human is when Jews are called dogs.
Yes, more than the French and Belgians and such because we are doing it right now. And since we were using Saddam as a proxy, the war between Iraq and Iran (justly) contributes to the hatred towards us.
And many people there do hate the religious police, you know.
Not true.
Hardly. You characterized them as nonhuman, when you claimed that they don’t act or feel like humans do.
That would have been a horrible thing to say, if I had actually said it.
Well, you shouldn’t have said it then.
My bad, next time you put words in my mouth I’ll choose them more carefully.
I did no such thing; it’s a direct implication of what you said.
The only thing I know about this person is what you’ve posted in this thread, but I’d have to say that he sounds not only moderate, but also extremely intelligent, considerate, intellectual, respectful, and polite almost to a fault. In short, he sounds like a wonderful person all around and if I lived in southern Manhattan I would be proud to have him working near me.
Reminder: the world’s (formerly) largest employer of suicide attacks, the LTTE/Tamil Tigers, had no religious affiliation or orientation*. So no, religious fanaticism is not the major motivation.
As for your characterization of DanBlather’s statement, why use a strawman to attack him when legitimate objections are available?
*The West has a kind of odd view of doing things that will end in one’s own death, presumably thanks to the Christian influence, and we don’t see the oddness of thinking suicide-by-others is reasonable but suicide-by-self is insane.