Misrepresentations you're sick of

The BBQ Pit
1

What positions that you frequently support are commonly misrepresented, mocked, trivialized, blown out of proportion, or otherwise used to make you look dumb? And would you like to take a moment to correct that?
For me, as a generally liberal person, it’s the concept of understanding bad people, particularly in the contexts of terrorists and criminals.
I think it’s VITAL to our ongoing war against terror to figure out what, if anything, the US has done to cause people to want to kill us. Why? Am I blaming American First? Am I saying “oh, we did X and Y and Z which were bad, so they had every right to bomb us?”

Not at all. Not even close. Not even in the BALLPARK. What I’m saying is this: There are some number of people out there who are already determined terrorists, actively trying to kill us. They deserve no mercy. We should hunt them down and kill them. When they do bad things, or try to do bad things, we should catch and punish them. If they say “oh, I only killed 50 americans because of X and Y and Z”, it’s too late, they’re Enemies.

There’s a much larger group of people who might someday become terrorists. They aren’t yet. They aren’t yet strapping on the bombs. But they might, depending on the road that life takes. Now, if we do things that push those people over into being terrorists, then hey, we’ve created terrorists. That’s a Bad Thing. If we can determine that those people are very irritated when we do X Y and Z, then we should realize that ceasing X Y and Z will cause there to be fewer terrorists. If possible, I’d MUCH rather have there be 1000 fewer terrorists in the first place than have to spend the time and lives and money catching those 1000 terrorists, particularly given that some of them will certainly strike before they are caught.

Now, it’s CRUCIALLY important to note that we do NOT have to stop doing X Y and Z once we determine what they are. We might decide that it’s something that is crucial to our foreign policy, or our alliances, or whatever, and keep doing it anyhow. But we might not. Anyhow, we should CERTAINLY have the information so that we can make an informed choice.

To sum up, if I ask what motivated the 9/11 terrorists, it’s not to be lily-livered or America-hating or sympathetic to their poor troubled childhoods, it’s for the very pragmatic reason that I want as few Americans to die in the future as possible.

Somewhat similar is the situation where someone has been convicted of some horrible crime, like child abuse, and I might be heard to ask “I wonder if he had a troubled childhood?”. Does that mean that I think it’s an excuse? If it turns out that his kitty died, am I going to give him a big hug and say “oh, man, my liberal brother, I too had a kitty who died, how can I possibly blame you for raping a baby given the horrible things you had to deal with”? Of COURSE not. Regardless of what motivated it, he’s now a child raper, and he’s going to jail forever, and I personally will happily toss the key into the ocean. BUT, suppose we notice that out of 100 child rapers, 95 were raped themselves as children, or 85 had alcoholic fathers, or 65 had pet iguanas. Any information of that sort that we can come up with will help us figure out how best to spend our tax dollars to set up programs to prevent the current generation of children from growing up to be child rapers. Again, it’s not boo-hoo-liberal-weakness. It’s a desire to PREVENT CHILDREN FROM BEING MOLESTED!!!

(Which doesn’t mean I feel no empathy at all… if someone was molested as a child and had an alcoholic father and now is a vicious criminal as an adult, basic human decency requires me to reflect on how sad it is that a formerly innocent child got destroyed and turned into an evil adult due to factors at least partially out of his control, and how can I say that I would have done better had I had the horrible misforture to be born into that situation. BUT, if he’s now an evil adult, he’s now an evil adult, and I’m not letting him out of jail just because he was unlucky in where he was born. I can conceivably see factors like that being used in an argument for life-in-prison vs. death penalty, but the poor guy’s troubled childhood shouldn’t matter at all if the question is whether he’ll ever be let free to potentially injure more victims).

Phew! Nice to finally get that off my chest!

2

That terrorist example is a good one. As a self-proclaimed moderate, who is probably viewed by many as a liberal, I heard the crap about touchy feely understanding terrorists.
-I am all for understanding them, if it makes it easier to hunt down and destroy them.

Likewise, the bit about blaming ourselves, blaming the US for it. No, my reaction was
-You tried to kill us. Fuck you. That was my home town after all (NYC, 9/11).

But the one that really sticks in my gullet is when any questioning or criticism of the administration is twisted into America hating, God hating, freedom hating, cheese eating, cowardly, Commie “traitorism”.
-All I can say is, all you superpatriot politicians and pundits and “singers/musicians” sure seemed “absent” when it was your turn in the barrel. Then you have the balls to talk smack about McCain, Kerry, Cleland, guys who DID go. Fuck you all. Fucking hypocrites. Bastards

I didn’t go to Nam. I was just young enough to barely miss it. I enlisted just as it was ending. I’m not sorry I missed it, but if ordered, I would have gone. How many “patriots” had deferments, “other priorities”, phony medical “conditions”, or whatever (AWOL Bush?). Fucking hypocrites. Bastards.

3

I hate he whole “they hate us because of our freedom”. WTF? They hate us because we are there, we are a different religion, we are rich, or our popular culture is spreading everywhere, but I don’t think they hate us because of our freedom, fucktards.

4

I think the fears about terrorism are blown way out of all porportion. We’re not any more at risk now than we were pre 9/11 but now that it’s big news everyone scared of the terrorists in the back yard.

Right after the London bombings one of the crappy “just on after the new/consumer watchdog/self righteous twat” programs pulled a stunt where they left a bag unattended on a train platform and timed how long it took before someone got suspicious and called security. For Brisbane they left it for 2 hours and then replaced it and still got no response. People where I work were all concerned about the lax security the next day and never seemed to stop and think.

What kind of idiotic terrorist would attack Brisbane of all places?!

5

Not Randy Newman:
*We’ll save Australia
Don’t wanna hurt no kangaroo
We’ll build an All American amusement park there
They got surfin’, too
*

6

So what was all that talk in 1992 about military service being off-limits in Presidential contenders? Oh yeah. He which not be spoken of here. I understand completely what you’re saying, but getting the Bush jab in there with no counter-balance (protesting in the Soviet Union?) lessens your claim of being a moderate.

“They” needs a qualifyer here. “They” are the few in charge. Totalitarianism is alive and well in some places. American pop culture is popular well beyond our shores. I assume by “They” you mean, for the most part, the regimes in the Middle East among other regions? “They”, in that case, obviously don’t want Western culture as a whole to take foot there. Hurts thier power base.

That and the fact we support Isreal. But I’m sure that’s only a small part of it.

7

bolding mine.

What a load of horse hooey. The terrorists “create” themselves by allowiing themselves to decide that X, Y, Z is a valid reason to kill. Once a person reaches adulthood, unless mentally incapacitated in some way, he or she is fully capable of making

Just like serial killers create THEMSELVES by stepping over that line from hating women because they won’t pay attention to him (or whatever)

If we can determine that those people are very irritated when we do X Y and Z, then we should realize that ceasing X Y and Z will cause there to be fewer terrorists. If possible, I’d MUCH rather have there be 1000 fewer terrorists in the first place than have to spend the time and lives and money catching those 1000 terrorists, particularly given that some of them will certainly strike before they are caught.

Now, it’s CRUCIALLY important to note that we do NOT have to stop doing X Y and Z once we determine what they are. We might decide that it’s something that is crucial to our foreign policy, or our alliances, or whatever, and keep doing it anyhow. But we might not. Anyhow, we should CERTAINLY have the information so that we can make an informed choice.

To sum up, if I ask what motivated the 9/11 terrorists, it’s not to be lily-livered or America-hating or sympathetic to their poor troubled childhoods, it’s for the very pragmatic reason that I want as few Americans to die in the future as possible.

Somewhat similar is the situation where someone has been convicted of some horrible crime, like child abuse, and I might be heard to ask “I wonder if he had a troubled childhood?”. Does that mean that I think it’s an excuse? If it turns out that his kitty died, am I going to give him a big hug and say “oh, man, my liberal brother, I too had a kitty who died, how can I possibly blame you for raping a baby given the horrible things you had to deal with”? Of COURSE not. Regardless of what motivated it, he’s now a child raper, and he’s going to jail forever, and I personally will happily toss the key into the ocean. BUT, suppose we notice that out of 100 child rapers, 95 were raped themselves as children, or 85 had alcoholic fathers, or 65 had pet iguanas. Any information of that sort that we can come up with will help us figure out how best to spend our tax dollars to set up programs to prevent the current generation of children from growing up to be child rapers. Again, it’s not boo-hoo-liberal-weakness. It’s a desire to PREVENT CHILDREN FROM BEING MOLESTED!!!

(Which doesn’t mean I feel no empathy at all… if someone was molested as a child and had an alcoholic father and now is a vicious criminal as an adult, basic human decency requires me to reflect on how sad it is that a formerly innocent child got destroyed and turned into an evil adult due to factors at least partially out of his control, and how can I say that I would have done better had I had the horrible misforture to be born into that situation. BUT, if he’s now an evil adult, he’s now an evil adult, and I’m not letting him out of jail just because he was unlucky in where he was born. I can conceivably see factors like that being used in an argument for life-in-prison vs. death penalty, but the poor guy’s troubled childhood shouldn’t matter at all if the question is whether he’ll ever be let free to potentially injure more victims).

Phew! Nice to finally get that off my chest!
[/QUOTE]

8

Not to mention the Parents of the Year[sup]TM[/sup] that actively send these kids to train to be bombs when they’re as young as 6. But I’m sure that’s our fault as well in the eyes of some.

9

bolding mine.

What a load of horse hooey. The terrorists “create” themselves by allowiing themselves to decide that X, Y, Z is a valid reason to kill. Once a person reaches adulthood, unless mentally incapacitated in some way, he or she is fully capable of making

Just like serial killers create THEMSELVES by stepping over that line from hating women because they won’t pay attention to him (or whatever), to taking that next step and “punishing” them for whatever sick reason he makes up by killing them.

Women who wouldn’t date our “hero” the serial killer didn’t “create” him by doing X, Y and Z (where x y and z are not dating him, etc), he made that decision all by his lonesome.

Oh are you KIDDING us? You can’t be serious. This is a spoof thread right? It has to be.

“Irritate” them? My gosh, when people are irritated at something another does, they flip them off, yell at them, whatever. They don’t (normally) ram airplanes into buildings because they’re “irritated”.

Secondly, the problem with terrorists is that X, Y and Z in this instance are generally going about our own business being Americans living the American life and believing in our own religions, having our own (to them) sinful pleasures and trying to make “the dream” come true.

So what you’re basicaally suggesting is that we do what they want, become muslim, all of our women should start wearing burkas and be seen and not heard, all toe the line an be exactly like them. Nothing less would help them not be “irritated” with us.

And so would we all, but getting to the point of preventing it isn’t going to be a matter of us all giving in to their demands. It’s going to take changing the way things are period. And I agree that that needs to happen WAY before the pre-terrorist is recruited and starts down that path.

Now, what I know about military strategy wouldn’t fill a thimble. But I do have a fairly extensive understanding of human nature and psychology. Giving in to a bully doesn’t change the outcome, they just up the ante. The “intelligence” that is supposed to be ferreting out and stopping these recruiting and training camps need to do a much better and faster job of it.

Even if it weren’t something that was crucial to our policies etc. What we do or don’t do, unless XYZ involves direct unwarranted attacks on them or the like, has nothing to do with stopping terrorism. Terrorists don’t kill because Americans do a specific set of activities, Terrorists kill and terrorize because they are attempting to gain power and domination. Why do they want that power and domination? It’s probably because they’re all so sexually frustrated. (sarcasm) Okay, partially sarcastic. This religion, as they’ve bastardized it from the original one, is severely abnormal and oppressive. The ONLY thing these people get out of life is the promise of what they’ll be rewarded if they toe the line and fight the good fight for Allah (and I’m talking about terrorists here, not normal muslims).

They’re recruited as young children and brain-washed about how America is Satan and how we stand for everything God (Allah) isn’t. And how, because of that, how we’ve gone against what Allah has said must be, that we all must die and so on. The most innocent things we as Americans do are considered great sins. Just watching TV is the greatest evil. And it just gets more insane from there.

From what I’ve read of these types of people, they’re very intelligent, but with emotional intelligence of much less ability than their IQ. It’s a really bad combination.

There’s nothing wrong with trying to figure out what motivated them. As long as we understand that “reason” does NOT equal “excuse”. In other words, that we don’t come to what you were suggesting in the beginning of your statements here with (paraphrased) “well if we do XYZ, then if we want them to stop being terrorists, maybe we should consider stopping XYZ”.

10

Could some kind MOD please delete my first half post? DAMN this tiny keyboard anyway. I hit a cap, then tried to uncaps and hit tab by mistake, then enter, and then there was the half finished replay.

Grrrrrrrrrr… I suck at typing.

11

Muslim extremists hate us because we live in ways that they disapprove of, and our freedoms are what make it possible for us to live the way we do. This is what is meant by “They hate our freedoms.”

Even more than they want us out of the Middle East, they want to force their (usually harsh and repressive) way of life upon societies and countries all over the globe. Look at Muslim activity in The Netherlands, the Phillipines, South and Central America, and, to a lesser degree, France.

Where there aren’t extremists, Muslim populations are trying to force repressive change by political means through their own numbers; and where there are extremists, they are trying to force repressive change through violence.

I realize this is not a politically correct thing to say, but it is a factual thing to say…and the fact of the matter is, “Freedom” – and its concomitant effect on a country’s populace – is not an ally of the Muslim world…rather, it is the head of the snake that must be killed in order for their way of life to prevail.

So “fucktard” your own self! :wink:

12

Best sense I’ve read in a long time on the problems with Islam was in an interview article in The Spectator with a sociologist turned Anglican priest called David Martin:

On violence

“There is a deeply rooted ideology of violence in Islam - a military psychology…those few who do turn to violence are able to find a certain amount of justification in the Koran.”

“Islam seeks peace but on its own terms…it’s a fine religion, but it places a high premium on victory…I fear many young men will see violence as the means to that victory.”

On autocracy/“monolithicism”

“[The Islamic] tradition is based on a single right way of behaving and strong warnings against the Infidel.”

On Christianity

“What sets Christianity apart is its suspicion of all human power. [Unlike Judaism and Islam, Christianity] insists that faith is something other than successful violence for a cause.”

I salute his courage.

(my italics)

13

Islamic societies suck, oppress women, have no religious freedom, and ban the SI Swimsuit Edition, but I don’t think they give a rats ass about how we live here. It’s not like they are bombing Switzerland or Sweden.

Well yeah, that’s what I said.

So let’s say that the Religious Right prevailed and we had censorship, no birth control or abortion, stores were closed on Sunday, women stayed at home, divorce was outlawed, and only christians could hold office. Would the Islamic extremists then like us?

14

There’s a misrepresentation I’m sick of.

15

Another one! I’ve personally known just two David Martins in my life, but I’m forever seeing the name turn up here, there and everywhere. Thanks!

/hijack

16

I’m with the OP. Understanding the enemy means you have information. Information is a tool. You can choose to use it or not choose to use it once you have it, but if you never seek it out you won’t have the choice to use it.

“Why does person X do horrible thing Y?” For so many people, they will accept no answer but “Person X is eeeeeevil.” Fine. But if that’s where inquiry stops as well as starts then people are deliberately remaining ignorant just so they can feel superior.

Sounds familiar.

17

I’m from the agnostic, pro-choice, pro-gay rights, gun control (I think), non-racist conservative right. I believe in the things I’ve just mentioned, and it was a long road to Damascus for me to accept that, “Hey! It’s okay to be a conservative. You don’t need a burning cross!”

Sometimes I think I’m on my fucking own on the SDMB. I’m definitely sick of being lumped in with conservatives (or so-called conservatives) who are truly redneck arseholes.

18

As long as you acknowledge the converse – that the United States simply chose to attack Afghanistan, not because we were compelled to by the 9-11 attacks, I have a hard time attacking your reasoning.

If, however, you believe that the US was “forced into a corner” and “had to do something” about 9-11, I find it incomprehensible that you give no credence to the fact that some violent Muslims believe they are put in a similar situation due to our policies in the Middle East.

Military strategists from Sun Tsu to Robert McNamera pretty much universally agree that it is important to know your enemy, and the thought that some people just wake up one day and decide out of the blue that “X, Y or Z” is a good reason to attack America, is just foolish.

(Just to be clear: I fully supprt the war in Afghanistan, it was absolutely the right thing to do. But I also acknowledge that, in the eyes of some, our policies drive people to take up arms against us. It is not a matter of blame, it is a matter of the law of “equal and opposite reaction” in politics.)

19

It’s not our policies. It’s history. That part of the world has hated Christians since the turn of the last millenium because of the Crusades.

I don’t normally quote the Bible, but what we are seeing today is the long, long, long-term result of “sow the wind, reap the whirlwind”. The actions taken by Christian looters 1000 years ago are coming back to haunt us.

20

How is that a load of horse hooey? Those who feel hopeless surrender to that state and act accordingly. Isn’t it true that in America the prisons are over represented by poor, young, black males? In the NZ prison population Maori are over represented, in Australia it is Aboriginals.

The only difference between the US, Aus, NZ etc and those Middle Eastern (and other) countries is simple, “our” youth who feel unable to succeed in society become burglars, rapists, murderers etc, their’s become angry young men with bombs.

The difference is having a reason to demonstrate dissatisfaction. In many Western countries that dissatisfaction is aimed at society in general, through random senseless violence. In countries under going major political or religous issues, the violence becomes more focused. The “enemy” seems more tangible.

Northern Ireland was a perfect example. I don’t think the Northern Irish Catholics hated anyones freedom but I’m sure they did hate the way their world was affected by British troops. I don’t believe they thought the English were trying to impose abortions or divorces on them but I think the English were a perfect place to focus their dissatisfaction at their lot in life.

You just can’t compare a random serial killer (an individual and also rare nutter) to a politicaly/religiously motivated activist/terrorist. The former is NUTS (not that nutters are raised in a vaccum), the latter has been converted by the world around him and those telling him what to do.

Perhaps there is an element of terrorism inspired by "X, Y and Z are generally going about their own business being Iraqis (Palestinian, Afgani etc) living the Iraqi life and believing in their own religions, having their own sinful pleasures (to them…many wives?) and trying to make the dream come true.

Are you suggesting that women should give up the burka and take up the mini skirt, the thong and the butterfly-arse tattoo to toe the line?

If I were an Iraqi right now I would agree with you “Giving in to a bully doesn’t change the outcome, they just up the ante”. To the Iraqis America IS the bully trying to impose it’s beliefs on them.

I KNOW America wants democracy for Iraq. I KNOW I like democracy. I am not a poor Iraqi young man though. Perhaps some of them place religous beliefs above political beliefs…they certainly wouldn’t be the first or last or only ones to do so.

I’m sure your “fairly extensive understanding of human nature and psychology” is telling you that occupying Iraq is breeding more terrorists…the evidence is on the news every day.

(I have to preface this by saying that Bush and his cronies are the only Americans I mean) Americans don’t kill Iraqis because they do a specific set of activities, America kills and terrorises because they are attempting to gain power and domination (see doesn’t it sound much less simple that way?)

I am a godless non believer so the above quoted bit makes as much sense as this;

Why do they want that power and domination? It’s probably because they’re all so sexually frustrated. (sarcasm) Okay, partially sarcastic. This religion, as they’ve bastardized it from the original one, is severely abnormal and oppressive. The ONLY thing these people get out of life is the promise of what they’ll be rewarded if they toe the line and fight the good fight for Jesus (and I’m talking about American politicians here, not normal Christians).

This is just ridiculous. ALL religions recruit children. The recruiters are usually the parents. How dare parents want their children to share their religion! Damn cheek! Do many Christian parents or churchs explain Allah? Do many Christian parents explain that the simple act of eating bacon is a sin?

Do many parents in either religion offer their children the chance to believe religion is all nuts?

“these types”? Does that mean Muslims? They have oodles of IQ but no EQ? How do Christians rank on that scale?

From your mouth to Bush’s ears.