A sound and persuasive post BanquetBear. However, to defenders of Guantanmo Bay, as with the Iraq war and US foreign policy in general lately, the vile and repulsive conduct by the US is the very basis for that support they give.
Prove the violation of all things the US purports to uphold and support for the camp will not diminish. Just as the lack of WMD and the Abu Grahib atrocities did not starve the Iraq war. The slouching beast at the core of the US psyche feeds on these contortions and acts and demands more. Ever more and bloodier.
Well, the ICRC claims it has complete & unrestricted access for Inspections. And, that’s all that really counts. So, the OP is a yawner.
No, see this is where your bias is proven. It’s not that “the US don’t know what to do with them” it’s that no nation will take them; except for China, and they *sure as fuck * don’t want to go there, as what will happen there will make Gitmo look like Club Med. Now, if you could point to a more or less safe nation such as say- Canada- that has said “sure, we’ll take them” and the USA still won’t release them, then you’d be right. But since you clearly know better than the Administration, why don’t you find them a home? :rolleyes: Maybe your spare room? :dubious:
No. The ICRC only communicates its concerns to the US Government which has shown no respect at all for non-US lives and experiences.
Apologists for Gitmo have claimed that Conressmen and the Press have seen the conditions and they are good. My post clarifies that this argument is no longer tenable.
Did you read Banquet Bear’ admonishment of the usual US attitude to the Black Hole of Guantanamo- your post illustrates it well.
We’ve had plenty of serious threads in which I’ve strongly expressed my concerns about how we (the US) are operating Gitmo, both in terms of overall prisoner treatment and in the legal procedings set up to charge or clear the detainees. This is not one of those threads.
The ICRC is (in the lack of other arrangements) the Protecting Power. It (and only it) has the right to inspect POW camps. Letting the AP or AFP in would be a violation of the Public Curiosity thing. So the US is meeting the minimal requirement.
Still, one day the truth of all this will come out and we will all be very ashamed. I think.
Exactly. I found BB’s arguements much more compelling than the OP (like thats a big surprise ), and as I’ve said in other threads I’m no big fan of how the Administration has (mis)handled the whole sorry business. I’m of the opinion that the Administration needs to shit or get off the pot wrt these prisoners…either bring them to trial and let the chips fall where they may or set them free.
Skimming BB’s excellent cites though I’m struck by one thing…the latest cite seems to be from 2004 with several of them in the 2003 range. We KNOW there were abuses going on then and that supposed corrective measures and an opening up of Gitmo at least to some organizations has taken place. The OP seems to be making the case that this is still going on however. Is there any compelling evidence that abuses, either of the same level or to a lesser extent are STILL ongoeing at Gitmo? The OP’s case is fairly weak wrt this arguement. I’m wondering if BB will help him out and provide some more solid evidence that this is the case. For myself, as I said above, I wouldn’t be surprised, though I would be disappointed…something I’ve become used too when thinking about this administration.
[QUOTE=John MaceSo, the most extreme case which substantiates “something fundamentally evil going on” is a female guard showing titty and touching the prisoner on his wee wee.
Oh Lord, let there be something fundamentally evil visited upon me! Please, Lord, tonight!
[/QUOTE]
You might change your mind if you saw the female guards in question.
I was not stating that this was still going on in my OP, as the reference did not support this.
However it would not surprise me.
When the Australian (now British) Taliban David Hicks is released (now that he is British, Blair needs to lift him) and the release of the MI5 informant Bisher al-Rawi is arranaged, we will have more up to date information on mistreatment in Guantanamo.
Then the very title of your OP is misleading if this wasn’t your intent.
‘Guantanamo- Prison visits are a sham’.
By saying visits ARE a sham you imply that this condition still exists as a proven fact (for instance, you could have said visits MAY be a sham to imply that the question up in the air, and therefore debatable, or WERE a sham, stating correctly that in the past there was a certain level of dog and pony-ing going on).
If you want to say it wasn’t your intent to try and make the case that because it happened in the past its still an ongoing problem, then I’ll accept that when writing your OP you did so in a way that is confusing to me (and other) readers…and leave it at that.
That said, what IS your intent here for debate? That in the past bad things happened at Gitmo? That in the past prison visit, even by our own Congress, were a sham? If so, maybe this would be better in GQ, as it seems the answer is ‘yes’.
Grammar. Have you not heard of the continuing present?
My point was: people have denied that there has been evil going on there. Some people have relied on the ‘inspections’ to show that. These have now been called into question by the Chaplain’s account.
I have continued to argue that evil has been done at Guantanamo between its opening and the present. We can have little evidence available because the US Government has created a black hole.
My comment “how can anyone deny that there is something fundamentally evil going on there?” is in the ‘continuing present’ - that evil has been done there and may still be going on.
“I am a cyclist” does not imply that one’s feet are currently on the pedals.
No, I am pointing out that the ICRC only usually makes comments on its inspections to the detaining authority. US compliance has been so poor that on one occasion the ICRC did break its vow of silence and brief the press about its concerns.
The ICRC has full access but the US Government knows that it (the ICRC) cannot currently discuss any problems except with the perpertrators.
The ‘Continuing Present’ Argument above also applies.
Also, if the US disimulated in the past to avoid full and fair inspections, it might be reasonable toi assume that such disimulation would continue if they wished to continue the cover up.
I am tired of apologists for Guantanamo who always want to see it in the best light and assume that the US Government is acting in everyone’s best interest. Outside of the US there is heavy perpetual criticism of Guantanamo and virtually no US allies (not even Tony Blair) support it.
The fact that you continue to hold several people of British residency and one British citizen, who I consider my brothers, compels me to point out any reasonable debating point that shows that Guantanamo is a blot on the face of a democracy.
The ‘Continuing Present’ Argument above also applies.
Also, if the US disimulated in the past to avoid full and fair inspections, it might be reasonable toi assume that such disimulation would continue if they wished to continue the cover up.
I am tired of apologists for Guantanamo who always want to see it in the best light and assume that the US Government is acting in everyone’s best interest. Outside of the US there is heavy perpetual criticism of Guantanamo and virtually no US allies (not even Tony Blair) support it.
The fact that you continue to hold several people of British residency and one British citizen, who I consider my brothers, compels me to point out any reasonable debating point that shows that Guantanamo is a blot on the face of a democracy.
I suppose then, that comments about your allegations being deficient in substance may be applied to your overall history - which consists of regurgitating just about any “USers are ee-vil, OMG” claims you can dredge up via a Google search, regardless of their viability. :rolleyes:
The problem is, the Chaplain’s account, even if we assume its completely accurate, is something like 3 years out of date. They date back to when we KNOW there were major problems going on there. Supposedly changes have been made to the operation of Gitmo in that period of time.
Do you have any evidence besides assumption that the changes have NOT been made, or that abuse continues? I hardly think that asking for this is being a Gitmo Apologist™ that you seem bound and determined to hang on me.
:dubious: Hardly a ‘black hole’…after all, YOU seem to know quite a bit about what happened several years ago. I seem to have read quite a bit about it as well. And I doubt that just you and I are in on it.
If the last few years have shown us nothing else, its that you CAN’T keep this kind of thing secret for long. Even supposed CIA black prisons, presumably THE most secret facilities by the supposed master of spy craft and evil, even THEY are pretty much common knowledge.
So, again, do you have anything a bit more recent…since though you denied it before this post of yours clearly indicates you DO want to talk about this in the context of the present.
Is anyone in this thread denying that bad things happened there in the past? I haven’t seen anyone doing so. Have you provided any evidence that this continues? I haven’t seen any as yet. Maybe BB will help you out again…IF there is any such hard evidence I’m sure he will find it for you.
And yet you know all about those past abuses…and you knew about them before the entire world started putting the US under a microscope. Do you have any FRESH evidence? Unless you’d like to make the incredible statement that now the US is much better at keeping secrets than 3 years ago…
There are two sides to the apologist coin…and you are on the opposite face, whether you see it or not.
While I have told you I disagree with the US run Gitmo prison and think major things need to change, I’m also singularly unimpressed by the lack of criticism ‘outside’ the US (by which I assume you mean In Europe Mainly™). It would be more impressive if the ‘outside’ didn’t basically critisize the US about, well, EVERYTHING, you know? Sorry, but yawn…
Your government is a major ally to the US (one of the last REAL allies we have). You saying that if your government didn’t apply major pressure to get its citizens back that the US wouldn’t send them? Maybe you need to be bitching about YOUR government my friend, and agitating for THEM to pressure the US to send back your ‘brothers’, ehe? 'Cause here is a tip…the US is pretty weak when outside government apply real pressure on this kind of issue, simply due to out our political system is set up. We WILL cave in if a nation like the UK makes a big enough stink…especially if they get it out in all our papers.
Give it a whirl…I hope you succeed and that we send your ‘brothers’ back to you. Hell, I hope ALL the countries do this and we send ALL the ‘brothers’ back…and let you guys deal with em.
That SHOULD have been ‘by the criticism ‘outside’ the US…’. I was in the middle of doing something and had started typing this post, then went off to do something else and just submitted it when I came back without preview. Sorry.
), and as I’ve said in other threads I’m no big fan of how the Administration has (mis)handled the whole sorry business. I’m of the opinion that the Administration needs to shit or get off the pot wrt these prisoners…either bring them to trial and let the chips fall where they may or set them free.